IRADUKUNDA, Mr Racine, Executive & Strategic Projects Manager, Organisation of African Communities in Western Australia NYAGA HUGHES, Dr Casty, Executive President, Organisation of African Communities in Western Australia [09:48] CHAIR: Welcome. Although the subcommittee does not require you to give evidence under oath, I should advise you that this hearing is a legal proceeding of the parliament. The giving of false or misleading evidence is a serious matter and may be regarded as a contempt of parliament. The evidence given today will be recorded by Hansard and attracts parliamentary privilege. I now invite you to make an opening statement before we proceed to discussion. Dr Nyaga Hughes : To the chair and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear today. OAC is the peak umbrella body representing African communities in Western Australia, connecting the 55 countries of Africa. Our submission makes one central point: Australia has a significant opportunity to strengthen trade with and investment in Africa, but this will require more deliberations and coordination and a relationship based approach. Australia's engagement with Africa has been totally concentrated in the mining and extractive industries. Those sectors remain important, particularly here in Western Australia, but they do not reflect the full scale of opportunity across Africa's diverse economies. Africa is experiencing rapid population growth, urbanisation and regional integration and a growing demand in sectors where Australia has strong capabilities. These include agribusiness, education and skills, professional services, technology, renewable energy, AI, food systems and the creative industries. OAC's key message is that African Australians must be recognised as part of Australia's trade and investment infrastructure. Our communities bring language skills, cultural knowledge, professional expertise, business networks and trusted relationships across both Australia and Africa. These are soft assets; they are practical tools for market access, risk reduction and partnership building. We also highlight real barriers that need the government's attention, including limited treaty frameworks with African countries, the lack of double-taxation agreements, regulatory and biosecurity barriers affecting agricultural trade, limited market intelligence and the underuse of diaspora experts. The African Continental Free Trade Area also presents a major opportunity. It allows Australia to think beyond individual countries and engage with emerging regional value chains across the continent. OAC, therefore, recommends a whole-of-government Africa strategy that moves beyond mining, supports Australian SMEs, engages diaspora organisations formally and aligns well with Australia's approach to Africa's own priorities and with the African Continental Free Trade Area. In short, Australia does not need to build the bridge to Africa from scratch. The bridge already exists through African Australians. What is needed now is recognition, structure and a partnership. Thank you very much. CHAIR: Thank you very much. In your view, what key actions can the Australian government take to integrate diaspora expertise into trade and investment policy? Dr Nyaga Hughes : One of the key areas is the need for Australia to look at Africa as a partner not as an inferior or a superior. We need to look at partnership, and we need to come up with strategies, legal systems and infrastructure which enhance trade—not just mining—between Australia and Africa, particularly taking the capital, in terms of human capital, which is already here in Australia in the diaspora from Africa. CHAIR: What barriers do you see preventing diaspora communities from playing a more prominent role in business and government? Dr Nyaga Hughes : I think one of the major barriers is a lack of laws protecting our people who want to trade between Australia and Africa. There are a lack of tax laws which align well between Australia and Africa and a lack of ways of being clear on how African goods can come to Australia and how that looks when it comes to bringing things which are not mining and agricultural goods. We've had many, many of our African traders having their goods confiscated or not even leave the African country. Those barriers are quite strong. Another barrier is that we need a change of skills so that people who are here can actually go back to Africa and bring a change. When we talk about mining, they just say that they'll go and build maybe a school. But we want to see that in a bigger way whereby, instead of us talking about just impacting a few people, we can empower the transfer of skills and the transfer of technology both ways—in Australia and in Africa. CHAIR: I'd also be curious to get your views on non-mining industries. You've mentioned education. What other growth potential for trade is there? Also, what is the role of women in trade? Dr Nyaga Hughes : Beyond education and beyond mining, we've got technology. Especially the finance sector in Africa—it is very, very advanced; you cannot compare it. In terms of empowering women, in terms of empowering small businesses, I think the business model they have in Africa can be brought here. There is a model which is used by Africans whereby small businesses access funds which they, not necessarily banks, have. That's a fantastic model. The second point, when it comes to women, is that there are some sectors where women thrive best. But they need support. And, when we talk about support, they need funds and they need skills which are appropriate or culturally appropriate to them. Sometimes, the biggest hurdles to jump are those initial stages of navigating both the Australian system and the African system. They were businesspeople when they were in Africa. When they come here, starting that business and continuing that business become very challenging. It took me, personally, a very long time to navigate. I used to be a lecturer back home, and I used to run my own business. It took me seven to 10 years to get back to my roots and get my business going. We don't want that to continue. We want an environment whereby there are ways of getting those women who are coming, in the diaspora, either continuing their business or enabling them to do business between Australia and Africa—or even to do business here which impacts Africa. CHAIR: I have one other question. Do you have many Australia Awards alumni as part of your group? Dr Nyaga Hughes : The award night? Are you talking about the awards which are coming? CHAIR: Yes, that's right. Dr Nyaga Hughes : We have awards coming in September. Those awards recognise key people within the diaspora who are working closely with the African community and who are working within the African community. They recognise different categories. We look at emerging young leaders. We look at who has the potential of leading in the space of the youth, in academic or business or leadership or various other areas. We also look at women. We are particularly looking at women. We look at women in leadership. What are they doing? How can we encourage them? How are they faring within the community, within the area of empowering women to take roles in senior positions? OAC, in addition to the award, have a program of learning with Curtin University to empower women. It's a six-month program, which is starting in October. This is the fourth time we are running it, and we have seen that impacting the businesswomen. Last time we did it, we had one class where we empowered women, and all those women who were in that class have now started their businesses. We are catching up with them to see how they are going. At the end of the course, they completed a business plan, and that's what they are implementing now. There is also an innovation category whereby we look at who has innovated something substantial, something which is impactful, something which is impacting not only the African community but the Australian economy at large. There is also the community champion. Now, looking at leaving the business, leaving the leadership, we want to see who is impacting not only the African community but beyond the African community. That's why we have the community champion. Then we look at who has got that resilience to stay being a community leader for over 10 years. That's what comes as the community pillar of the year. That looks at who has been in the community for 10 years trying to do things—not only community but business, employment and all those areas. And not just the African community—this one looks beyond the African community, and we're looking at the Australian community at large. CHAIR: Thank you. Senator Dean Smith? Senator DEAN SMITH: Thank you very much for your participation and your very comprehensive submission. I am interested in the comments you made in your opening remarks but also in the submission about the double-taxation arrangements. How is the community advocating for a discussion and improvement around those issues? Dr Nyaga Hughes : When it touches tax, it becomes quite complex because it is not one way. It is the Australian system agreeing with the African country, not countries. This is country by country because every country has got a different tax system. What we are trying to say is that, when we import things or we export things, there is double taxation. Can we start negotiations whereby, if something is taxed here, then it should be taxed in the other country or, if it is taxed in an African country, when it comes here, they should be able to get a concession? That's the sort of thing we want to see whereby we make an understanding that, when I import things and they have a tax, then I have already paid tax, so, when it comes here, it needs to be recognised. Or, if I am exporting, I have already paid tax. If I have not paid, then, when I go to the other side, I need to pay. That's the sort of thing we want to see happening because in some of the countries the tax is quite high. When you have double taxation, it inflates the price of items. Then it becomes very difficult for you to bring the items here and sell them without double taxation. Senator DEAN SMITH: Going to your point about country by country, do you have a view about which two or three countries Australia should focus its attention on in trying to secure those better regulatory arrangements? Dr Nyaga Hughes : Yes and no. We are working very closely with Curtin University to see which countries have trade ties with Australia because we want to prioritise where more goods are coming from. We have a meeting with our research team to see which countries we need to prioritise. Most likely, there will be those countries whereby we are importing things from a country like Kenya or a country like Sudan, where we know that there are certain countries whose goods are very specific. When they come here, they have an immediate market because that is what is lacking, and that's what we want to see. We want to see where those goods are coming from. Then we look at it and see what the impact of tax is in terms of the price. Senator DEAN SMITH: Curtin University is speaking to us next, so that's an opportunity for us. Turning to the matter of the diaspora, the OAC is the peak organisation representing many African community organisations of varying sizes. Some communities are relatively new to Australia compared to more established communities. What's the right mechanism for government to engage with diaspora groups? We've heard some evidence previously that the Australia Africa advisory council, which had been established, has been disbanded because it was largely inoperative rather than ineffective. I think it had been not nurtured might be the best way to describe it. From your experience, what's the right way to engage with the diaspora communities? Mr Iradukunda : We've seen community members come to us and tell us some of the issues affecting them. We have people who are interested in doing trade. There's a lack of information or no information available on the table. For example, if you want to bring goods from Africa to here, there can be an issue around biosecurity. There's a lot of restriction in terms of whether it's licensed. For example, if you want to bring some coffee here, there's a licence required in terms of type of coffee to bring. It can either be roasted or non-roasted. The information given needs to be appropriate so that people do not give up on trade, because they're interested in doing that. There are so many goods that can be brought to Australia but they need to be brought in a good way, not by jumping to anything else. Senator DEAN SMITH: So people who might want to import goods are having to navigate those regulatory arrangements in the absence of being able to go to a specific place to better understand what those arrangements or what those regulatory settings might be. Dr Nyaga Hughes : I think that has been recognised. Last year we had Global Connection funding, which brought together people to talk about global trading. This year it's still continuing. Part of our strategic plan is to bring together the business part of the associations. We have been very successful in bringing events together. We have been very successful in mentoring the youth. We have just received funding which is going to fund a position in our OAC office. Part of that position role will be to see what is needed by the associations. How can we build capacity within the associations, either in their leadership or in their business, by looking at them holistically instead of just looking at leadership? That's something which we are looking at. We are very particular about developing some materials or directing people to the right places where they can get information. If it is trade, if it is somebody who has just arrived in Australia, how can they get that information? What they are lacking is information. Sometimes our African people don't like reading a lot. We are not readers. If you give us a lot of things to read, we rush through and we don't read the details, so we are looking at how we can translate that information either into a podcast or into audio. They can listen to it. They can learn where to go and what is needed. That's something which we are taking very, very seriously. Senator DEAN SMITH: Does the OAC have an African business council or a dedicated business group within it at the moment? Dr Nyaga Hughes : At the moment, no. What we have is a research department, and that research department is supposed to pick the information and disseminate that information to the different groups. Last month, we were focusing on the information that goes to the seniors. For part of last year, we were focusing on information to be given to the young people. The next phase is looking at the information. Between now and September, we will focus on the information which is going to be given to the global business people. Senator DEAN SMITH: Excellent. Congratulations for everything the OAC does do in Western Australia. Dr Nyaga Hughes : Thank you very much. Mr REBELLO: Thank you again for coming here before us. Senator Smith took one of my questions. There are two key themes that you have outlined in your submission and in your presentation that I think are quite practical, one being the discussion about biosecurity and the other being the discussion about the double taxation agreements. I know you said you've got a meeting with Curtin University. The committee would benefit from hearing if there is a result in the key countries of focus, so, if that's something you're able to provide to us at a later point in time, I think that would be very useful. When it comes to double-taxation agreements, one of the challenges is the negotiations are resource intensive. From a country's perspective, they would be wanting to negotiate with those countries that do have the biggest volume. I think that's definitely something that's important to us. In the biosecurity side of your submission—I don't profess to be a biosecurity expert—my understanding is that you provided the example about yams. My understanding is that part of the reason that African nations are treated differently to, say, Pacific Island countries is the prevalence of certain issues in relation to the products. Is that something that you recognise, or are there any other examples you can provide the committee where you think that there's actually no justification for differentiation in treatment? Is there something that we would consider to be a low-hanging fruit that you could say, 'Well, actually we have addressed a particular virus in a product or we have treated things differently and we're still experiencing discriminatory treatment by the Australian border security.' Dr Nyaga Hughes : I think this area is quite sensitive because it's case by case. The majority of the people who have brought things here have had problems clearing them, getting them over. Generally, our people say it is like there's an unending bias. When things have gone through the right channel, they are treated with suspicion. When that occurs, it is very, very expensive. For someone to get a whole container here and for it to go bad is a hindrance. When everything is treated with suspicion, sometimes you cannot say how, because you can't pinpoint it. Let me say that it is in the people's subconscious. We have been intending to talk to the ambassadors of the various countries, because this is something which needs to be coming right from the country where goods are coming from. When goods are satisfied by whatever country they are coming from then that system of certification should be the same system here. When it is certified there and comes here, it is like that certification was not enough. We need to do an additional one and an additional one and an additional one. Mr REBELLO: Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like it all comes down to communication. Maybe there's a better role for the Australians to communicate with those various governments so that we're not going through the process. It wouldn't be the intention of any Australian government to have that perception of bias. Maybe the Australian government needs to be clearer about their requirements. That needs to occur both from a direct relationship with the various countries and with the people who are doing the exporting. Is that something you'd— Dr Nyaga Hughes : That's something which needs to be looked at. I think we need to work with both Ambassador Sia and Australian ambassadors in African countries so that part of their role when they are there is to be on top of the systems which are being used to certify those things which are coming—that they have checked what systems are being used; I believe that's part why they are on the ground anyway—so that, by the time they come here, the systems are very clear. Let's take for example, when something is coming from Ghana. The Ghanaian government needs to understand what the Australian standard is, what we call a tickbox. When they have ticked a box on their side, is that box being ticked in Australia? Having that communication done properly is quite important. In the same way, when we have people come here and they have maybe done nursing, they come and convert. They have a one-year conversion program and they become qualified nurses. When somebody has maybe done engineering back home and they come here, there is no clear path. That's why we have professionals from Africa coming here and becoming taxi drivers. In some of those areas, there is no clear way of conversion. That's what you're seeing. In the same way that we have a tickbox for nursing, we need a tickbox for engineers. We need a tickbox for other professions so that when somebody comes, they know that they are coming as an engineer. If I come here and I do this course, I transition to be an Australian engineer. The same way that we are dealing with goods is the same way we need to deal with our education, so that we are talking the same language here and in Africa. I'm an accountant and I was very key in getting the accounting profession in my own country recognised here. If you are a CPA in Kenya, when you come here you only do one unit and you become a CPA in Australia. That's the sort of thing we want to see, whereby there's something clear cut. If I'm importing, say, something like an avocado, when a tickbox is checked, that tickbox is the equivalent to what is being ticked in Australia, wherever I'm importing from. That is very, very important. Mr REBELLO: I think that's very useful to us. I do have one more question. In their submission, Curtin University, who will appear before us, suggested the creation of a diaspora unit in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, in order to develop and implement a diaspora engagement strategy. One of the things that you've called for in your submission is integrating diaspora expertise into trade and investment policy. Is that something you'd support? Dr Nyaga Hughes : I support that 100 per cent— Mr REBELLO: Fantastic. Dr Nyaga Hughes : because people want to see people who look like themselves, and we don't want somebody who is already biased. It's time for us to remove the bias and get someone who has got a critical mind. When you look at something, because it's coming from a certain country you are already looking at it like it is not good. You see that. That is very, very important. Mr REBELLO: Thank you. CHAIR: Are there any other questions? Mr REBELLO: Actually, I do have one more. There are other bodies that have put submissions to us. You speak about bias. It's something that I'm very interested in. You represent a number of different organisations. Dr Nyaga Hughes : Fifty-four countries, and currently 55. Mr REBELLO: There is no doubt there is a certain level of racism when it comes to bias and that underpins bias. In your experience, do you think that is being addressed? Do you think it is getting better? Do you think there is anything that government can do from a policy perspective to address that? That seems to be something that affects the way people perceive trade with Africa. It affects our foreign relations with Africa. It affects a lot of different things. What are your views? Dr Nyaga Hughes : My view is that this area is something within the system. The system which was initially done or established did not take into consideration the difference between Australia and Africa. That's one thing. The other thing is that the people who we are seeing are biased are the same people who are supposed to be reviewing the system. So it becomes a vicious circle if you look at it. If you tell me I've got a problem and I'm the problem, I can't see that. I won't be able to see that. I think that's where sometimes we need to get Curtin University or an academic to come and inform the whole system. How can we address bias? How can we be able to make sure that where we are today is not where we'll be in five years time? Because if we don't do anything, if we don't get some ways of addressing these biases, either perceived or actual, then we will be talking about the same thing in five years time. When we started talking about global connection and diaspora, it was about three or four years back. We sat down and we said, 'We'll keep talking and talking.' We need to take action. This is a time where we need to look at it and see how we can address biases. How can we ensure that the system is shaken a bit, even if it's a five-year plan? How can we make sure that the officers involved at different levels are being educated on both perceived and real bias so that they themselves can recognise that they are doing it? Sometimes you look at it, or you look at what people are doing and the way they are addressing you and the way they're addressing things, and you're like: 'Hang on here. Is that something somebody is doing consciously, or is this something which somebody has been doing for too long and it becomes normal?' It's something which really needs to be addressed. It's not something you can solve by just pressing a button. It is a strategy which needs to be put in place to see how that can be addressed over time. Mr REBELLO: Thank you very much. CHAIR: Thank you very much for your time today. It's been very, very helpful and interesting. If you have been asked to provide any additional information, please forward that to the secretariat. Please note that responses to questions on notice will be published on the website as submissions to the inquiry. You will be sent a copy of the transcript of your evidence to assist with answering any questions taken on notice today, and you will have an opportunity to request corrections to any transcription errors. Proceedings suspended from 10:22 to 10:45 .