DAGBANJA, Associate Professor Dominic, Curtin University Law School, and Chief Investigator, Centre for Australia-Africa Relations, Curtin University GOREDEMA, Ms Ruvimbo, PhD candidate and Administrative Officer, Centre for Australia-Africa Relations, Curtin University; and Secretary, Australia Africa Universities Network MICKLER, Associate Professor David, Director, Centre for Australia-Africa Relations, Curtin University; and Co-Chair, Australia Africa Universities Network CHAIR: The subcommittee will now resume its public hearing for its inquiry into strengthening Australia's trade and investment relations with Africa. This hearing will be broadcast on the parliament's website, and the proof and official transcripts of the proceedings will be published on the committee's website. Welcome. Do you have any comments on the capacity in which you appear today? Prof. Dagbanja : I teach international economic law at Curtin University Law School. I also serve as the co-director of learning and teaching at Curtin University Law School. CHAIR: Although the subcommittee does not require you to give evidence under oath, I should advise you that this hearing is a legal proceeding of the parliament. The giving of false or misleading evidence is a serious matter and may be regarded as a contempt of parliament. The evidence given today will be recorded by Hansard and attracts parliamentary privilege. I now invite you to make a brief opening statement before we proceed to a discussion. Prof. Mickler : Thank you to the chair and thank you to the committee for this great opportunity to speak to this important inquiry. I'm Dean, Global Africa, and Director of the Centre for Australia-Africa Relations at Curtin University, based here in Perth. I'm also the national co-chair of the Australia Africa Universities Network. I made separate written submissions to the inquiry on behalf of both the centre and the AAUN. In these brief opening remarks, I would like to highlight a few common themes and recommendations. Firstly, there is significant potential for the deepening of Australia-Africa relations across various sectors, starting from a relatively low level of knowledge and engagement to date. Africa's economic and demographic trajectory is already shaping the future of global developments across markets, across talent and across areas like critical minerals, and, outside of the mining sector, Australia has not been awake to the substantial opportunities presented by engaging more strategically with Africa. Secondly, Australia currently lacks the adequate national knowledge and policy infrastructure that would be necessary to develop a national strategy for the long-term and sustainable development of Australia-Africa relations. Investing in this infrastructure and developing a holistic strategy are imperative at this point in time—and the work of this inquiry is an important contribution to this objective. Thirdly, the higher education and research sector can play a central role in helping to drive and support Australia-Africa relationships, including as a generator of its own economic value, but also in supporting other economic sectors through research, education and training, and academic diplomacy. Curtin University's campus in Mauritius, which is currently the only Australian university campus in Africa, is a great example of this at play. Fourthly and finally, we recommend the development of new and the enhancement of existing key Australia-Africa knowledge and policy platforms, including, firstly, the development of a new Australia-Africa council, which would be responsible for drafting a new national strategy; secondly, the development of an Australian centre of excellence in Africa, which would bring together the Australian government, Australian industry and Australian universities to build capacity and economic development; and, thirdly, enhancing existing platforms, such as the Africa-Australia centre at Curtin University and the Australia Africa Universities Network. Australia and Australians are generally well regarded across Africa but lesser known than other international partners and less visible than we could be. We operate there in the absence of an integrated national strategy and with limited resources. Similarly, most ordinary Australians have a limited understanding of or engagement with the African continent and tend to rely on unhelpful stereotypes. Together, these limitations inhibit the development of stronger relationships, including in trade and investment. I'd like to conclude by highlighting the growing significance of the African diaspora in Australia, both as agents of economic value and as bridges between our continents and societies. Our current Australian Research Council funded project on African impact in Australia, which my two colleagues will discuss, is examining the political and economic impact of Africans here in Australia. The diaspora should therefore be viewed as a valuable, if so far underutilised, asset to our country. CHAIR: Thank you. Would anybody else like to make an opening statement? Prof. Dagbanja : Yes, I will. I will be speaking to the role of law in promoting Australia-Africa trade relations. I'm using 'law' here very broadly to embrace both Australian domestic law and international law. The law is an enabler of increased trade and investment between Australia and Africa, and it can facilitate economic engagement between the two continents, but the law could also serve as a barrier in terms of promoting trade and investment relations between Australia and Africa. Currently, the law has not been actively used by Australia to facilitate trade and investment engagement with the continent of Africa. The population of Africans in Australia is growing, and with that comes an opportunity to increase and diversify trade and investment relations between Australia and Africa, which today is currently concentrated in the mining and extractive sector. Australia has very limited bilateral investment treaties and regional trade agreements with African countries. I'll give you some statistics. Australia has around 18 free trade agreements with 30 economies in force, including 13 with Asia-Pacific countries. None of these free trade agreements are with an African country. Australia has 17 bilateral investment treaties in force. Only one is with an African country, which is Egypt, but seven are with Asia-Pacific countries. Australia has double-taxation treaties with more than 40 countries but, again, only one with an African country, which is South Africa. This means limited international legal protection for Australians and Africans who want to do business in Africa and Australia. For example, the absence of a double-taxation agreement means that Africans who want to do business here and back home will be double taxed. Australians who want to do business here and want to do business in Africa could be taxed here and taxed in the African countries in which they want to do business. Bilateral investment and regional trade agreements provide the legal basis for the protection of investment and trade, and the very limited trade and investment agreements essentially mean that there are very limited opportunities for international legal protection for businesses across the two continents. Australian domestic laws also facilitate business because they allow individuals to set up and run businesses if they want to. But, again, if we look at biosecurity legislation, that could serve as a barrier to trade and investment. For example, yam, which is a staple in Africa, can only enter Australia in peeled and frozen form. Essentially, that makes it very difficult for a person like me, coming from a farming community, to engage in yam trading in Australia. Biosecurity legislation is a major area that could serve as a barrier in terms of promoting trade and investment relations between Australia and Africa, so domestic import legislation is an important area to look at. In conclusion, I'm making the point that, to expand trade and investment relations between Australia and Africa, we need to visit the question of the law and its role in impeding or promoting trade and investment relations between the two continents. Currently, there's a research gap in that area, and we need to seriously look at that question. I will be open to further questions in the discussion period. Thank you. CHAIR: Great. Thank you. Ms Goredema : Thank you, Chair. My PhD scholarship is funded by the Australian Research Council as part of the ARC Discovery Project on African Impact in Australia. My remarks draw on aspects of my doctoral research, a national mapping of African diaspora organisations in Australia, and a national ARC survey of 834 African people in Australia—the first of its kind. I'll focus on one key point. The African diaspora represents a significant economic partner within our nation, one whose contributions are already evident but whose potential has yet to be fully engaged. My research maps hundreds of African diaspora organisations registered across Australia, operating within established government frameworks including the ABR and ACNC register. Where structure exists, the community uses it. This community is already trading, moving capital and holding the networks and tacit knowledge needed to strengthen Australia's engagement with Africa. Of those who participated in the ARC survey, 1 in 10 owned businesses and 1 in 10 of those business owners are already trading directly with Africa, with no treaty, council or support structure behind them. Nearly half of those surveyed send money to their family, to their countries of origin. That is an economic channel between two continents that already exists and, with the right structure behind it, could support enterprise and trade in both directions. These figures illustrate the breadth and significance of the African diaspora's contribution to our nation. Trade activity between Africa and Australia is not hypothetical. We found it concentrated within this community, and it needs the right structures and institutions to reach its full potential not only for Africans in Australia but for any Australian business seeking to do trade with the continent. What is missing is a structure that connects the two continents. Thank you. CHAIR: Thank you very much for those opening statements. A general question: how effectively do you think Australia currently collaborates across education and research with African nations, and what can be done to support growth in this area? Prof. Mickler : Thank you very much for the question. I think within Australian universities there is an interest in Africa but a lack of government incentives to promote engagement in that direction. Many of the Australian government incentives are to engage into Asia. For example, the new South-East Asia strategy now prioritises South-East Asia as an education source, in terms of partnerships and so on. So, the activities that we do see between Australian and African universities have really been swimming against the tide. The network structure that we've established through the AAUN has been a helpful way of bringing together universities that otherwise perhaps wouldn't meet each other, but we really do that in the absence of any kind of Australian government resourcing or structured approach. There is significant interest within Australian universities—particularly from African diaspora scholars, who have their own individual networks. What we're trying to do is to connect individual networks to institutional networks at a wider level. CHAIR: Did anyone else want to comment on that? Prof. Dagbanja : Perhaps an area where the Australian government is doing well is in the Australia Awards Africa scholarships. That is a significant area where the Australian government is promoting education engagement between the two continents. But I think, currently, the funding is limited; it's up to master's level. So, potentially, to expand the scope of research, maybe the government could be thinking about expanding this to include PhD-level research in relevant areas. CHAIR: Your submission notes that African migrants are affected by Australia not recognising educational and professional qualifications obtained in Africa—and it's something that we've heard of from other witnesses as well. Could you expand on this and on what suggestions you have to align educational and professional standards. Prof. Dagbanja : Yes. I think I have a point here in my presentation which I couldn't speak to, but, essentially, I can cite myself as an example. I came here as a lawyer qualified in Ghana. I was admitted as a lawyer in 2005, so that's over 20 years as a lawyer. I needed to practice law here. I'm an academic now. Essentially, I had to be reassessed to complete the core unit for the JD, or Bachelor of Laws, program, and that meant going back to do a first degree in law—ultimately, that was what I had to do. Then you go through the practical legal training, and then you go through the usual process that a typical first-year person from secondary school here will go to a law school to do. There's no recognition of prior working experience that you bring from back home and so forth. So, essentially, you more or less begin from scratch. You can find a similar thing in the medical profession and in the nursing profession and in other areas. There are also requirements around English language competency, where—in spite of all of your education from Africa in English, and even work experience here—you'll still be required to do an English language test, to the extent that even the completion of a university degree in Australia doesn't meet the English language requirements for the purposes of entry into the professions. So these place limitations, in terms of people's ability to go into the professions that they are already ready to go into in the first place. Visa requirements, of course, tie migrants to certain nominated employers and also limit their economic agency. There are challenges around here, in terms of getting settled, when you have come in with the requisite requirements so that you should, seemingly, fit into the system. So it is an area that I think the Australian government could seriously be looking at. Ms Goredema : My approach to education is a little bit more broad, broadly speaking, and I'll also give a little example. I'm originally from Zimbabwe, and my cultural knowledge of Australia came from watching Skippy and other Australian cultural things, like Neighbours. By the time I arrived in Australia, I was very familiar with who Kylie Minogue was. And this is something endemic: there is large cultural knowledge regarding Australia within Africa, particularly in Anglophone African countries. So people are not coming from Africa without knowledge of how Australian systems, or Anglophone systems, work. The cultural exchange of music, food, movies and film has a really broad impact on how perceptions are created regarding the literacy levels that Australians and Africans need about each other, and this is an area of opportunity—if given the space to grow. There are many African organisations here in Australia that bring films and festivals to try and create that educational sphere, yet, in the schooling system, I'm sure, many schools are not aware of the different African languages that are there and are not willing to teach or to understand what's happening in different African countries. Also, there is the exchange—for Australian people to come to Africa, to learn; to see, on the ground, what it is to innovate; to see, on the ground, what it is like to be a person from Africa with certain ICT skills; and to be innovative. So, there's an opportunity here where both African governments and Australian governments can look at cultural exchanges and support institutions, particularly university institutions, to get Australian students over to Africa to learn and vice versa. This is not impossible; it's being done with other continents and it can be done with Africa too. Prof. Mickler : I'll add a point to that. The New Colombo Plan, which is a fantastic plan to send Australian students to Asia and the Pacific, has a very long success, but it has excluded Africa. There's no current Australian government funded scheme to take Australian students to Africa for short-term study, and this really does limit the ability for Australian students to learn about the continent. Of course, we know from the New Colombo Plan that those who have been to Asia and the Pacific come back as ambassadors for those regions and have a much different perspective. We did make a submission to the review of the New Colombo Plan suggesting a trial of some African countries, but that wasn't adopted. It's a real barrier to actually moving young people, in a study environment, across to Africa currently. CHAIR: Both submissions make recommendations about the need—and I think you mentioned this in your opening statement—for a national Australia-Africa council. How would such a body be structured, and what role would academic institutions play in that? Prof. Mickler : We would see this as the important first piece of a puzzle towards developing a national strategy for Australia-Africa relations. Currently, we don't have any standing platforms that bring together the key sectors, such as the education sector, the diaspora sector and the business sector, into a regular conversation with government. As you probably are aware from the committee's work, there's quite a lot going on in these different sectors but there's no common meeting place where we can actually provide advice to government. So, we would recommend that some kind of structure, whether it's a council or some alternative, is established in order to have a regular meeting point between those key sectors where we can, obviously, bring information to government. We would also hope to have government help to coordinate across those sectors so that we can have much more impact in what we do. It would, of course, be an advisory type of body. It could develop into something which is also a granting authority, but it doesn't have to be that. I think, in the first instance, we're just looking for that regular point of contact with government—certainly for the education sector but, as we know from colleagues, also across sectors. That is something that they're quite keen to have the opportunity to be part of. CHAIR: Great, thank you. Senator Smith. Senator DEAN SMITH: Who is the most prominent sporting or cultural ambassador for Africa in Australia? Prof. Mickler : Well, Gout Gout is pretty well up there. I think, with the Socceroos, you could probably have some new contenders. In the sporting field, there's been quite a high visibility of African Australians—perhaps also in music. Without knowing where your question is heading—one of the areas of our research is showing is that many African professionals would like to be known in their fields as well, outside of the entertainment sphere. The ability to be recognised as African Australians in law, in business or in medical professions—that kind of acknowledgment is probably not something that we see publicly. Senator DEAN SMITH: What is the rationale for excluding Africa from the Colombo Plan opportunities? Prof. Mickler : We didn't receive any written response to the submission on that. It is very much tied into the Indo-Pacific strategy, which I completely understand, and it makes a lot of sense. It's an excellent program. Perhaps it could be a separate program that would do a similar thing, which would be all about giving young Australians that opportunity to physically travel to Africa and to do so in a structured study environment. We don't know the reasons why that wasn't adopted. Senator DEAN SMITH: It demonstrates your point that, in the absence of an Africa strategy, it's easy for these opportunities to be overlooked or consciously ignored. Prof. Mickler : Yes, that's true. I don't know if my colleagues want to add to this. Prof. Dagbanja : Talking about the establishment of the centre in the manner proposed by Professor Mickler, I think both Africa and Australia haven't figured out what they want to do with each other and what the potential is for working together in a mutually beneficial manner. Currently we have representatives from Africa in the form of ambassadors, high commissioners and so forth, but that area is very quiet, and we don't know the level of engagement between government representatives here with the Australian government. These are very important sources—reference points—that we could use to really activate the engagement between the Australian and African continents. Currently, I think the two continents really haven't utilised the opportunity to collaborate and work together. Establishing a centre that focuses on that will bring together all the different parts that are currently in the system. On your question around ambassadors—it's not because David is my friend, but I think he's doing an excellent job. The two of us were working at the University of Western Australia before we moved across to Curtin Law School. David was active in setting up the Africa Research and Engagement Centre at the University of Western Australia. He moved across to Curtin University, and he was the brains behind the Centre for Australia-Africa Relations. He and I have worked very closely together, and so I think he's a reference point in any conversation—as far as I know, if I can be objective about that—about Australia-Africa relations. Beyond that, at the individual level at universities, for those of us who are university lecturers, our research is actually on Africa but also increasingly on Australia-Africa relations. There are all these efforts at the individual level that need to be harnessed for the good of the two continents. We are working at a very disaggregated individual level. If we can find a way of harnessing all of these efforts, we can really strengthen the relations between the two continents and promote trade and investment. Senator DEAN SMITH: You made some observations about legal gaps. Where should Australia focus its activity when thinking about Africa? We are not realistically able to focus on all of Africa, and different nations are at different stages of development et cetera. Where should our focus be? Which countries, or which regions of Africa, should we be focusing on? Prof. Dagbanja : I wonder if it would be realistic to suggest a region without engaging in some form of research to look at where the potential lies. I would not be doing a good job if I were to specify any country at the moment. Currently the focus, as I said, is on the mining extractive sector, but it depends on what we want to focus on. Unless we engage in some form of research to look at where the potential is and how we can pick and build on that—looking at the population, you could see South Africa, Nigeria, Ghana, which is my home country, and so forth—that question in and of itself needs to be looked at if we want to expand trade and investment relations. What is the area? What is the subject matter of trade and investment that we want to engage in in the first place? These are crucial questions that we need to address. I referred to the law aspect. There is a research gap and a knowledge gap in terms of how the law limits and inhibits trade and investment between the two areas. Again, that is a question that needs to be looked at critically, and it hasn't been answered. Another crucial area is the capacity in Africa—with small-scale businesspeople, for example—to bring trade and investment here. Laws and regulations could essentially be limiting factors in getting this business sector to operate in Australia. Senator DEAN SMITH: I have a final question: is it a product of Australia's bias that we tend to focus on those parts of Africa with Anglo heritage, which are English speaking? We're not conscious of that bias, so we might be missing opportunities in those parts of Africa with French or other heritage and language skills. Prof. Mickler : Historically, that has been the case, and it has been much easier to engage through the Commonwealth and through the anglophone countries, including those on the west-African side—Ghana, Nigeria. Geographically, eastern and southern Africa is that much easier. One of the big challenges we face is the limited number of direct flights between Australia and Africa; I think it's only Perth-Johannesburg, Sydney-Johannesburg, Perth-Mauritius, and that's it. It's very difficult to get to other places. For those reasons, it makes sense to concentrate on the anglophone eastern and southern African side in the first instance, and perhaps establish some capability there first before looking beyond that. Countering that is that the mining industry is working right across, everywhere, so there is an Australian interest in west Africa, in central Africa and so on. A prudent strategy would be one looking at hubs in some of the subregions—maybe an east African hub, a southern African hub, something in west Africa—where you would have an Australian concentration, and that would allow you to bring in neighbouring countries. Something like the centre of excellence that we mentioned could be something you could put somewhere and draw in others from around it. It would have to be phased; you would have to start with those that are easier—the anglophone eastern and southern countries—then look at what's possible beyond that. Ms Goredema : To build on that, in my research every African country, at least preliminarily, has an organisation that has some sort of collective here in Australia. That surprised me, because I didn't think of every African country having some sort of informal or formal organisation. If the linkages are done right, and if the structure and communication is clear to start internally engaging with countries that are francophone or lusophone, it is possible to get that insider knowledge that you might not regularly have access to. There are people from those countries who are here and who are very knowledgeable and formalised. Use what's homegrown, so to speak. Senator DEAN SMITH: The observation I would make from your evidence and your submission is the lack of any structure for our engagement, whether cultural, economic or strategic, means that nothing is as impactful as it could be, and there's no entry point for discussions around expanding the Colombo Plan, or whatever the case may be. It's the absence of any structure at all. Prof. Mickler : That's probably the central point we would make; to start a strategic conversation you need to bring the right people to the table and then think through the different sectors, what they're already doing, and how that can be connected to government policy. That's not happening currently. There is all this work going on among universities, among the mining sector, among the diaspora communities, but it's happening across each other rather than being coordinated through government. Again, we're not saying it has to be something that's funded, but there needs to be a coordination by government—perhaps a meeting three times a year— Senator DEAN SMITH: Beyond Africa Down Under? Prof. Mickler : Beyond Africa Down Under. That's one of the meeting points, but there are very few outside of that, currently, and even that's not fully structured in a way that gets the most out of all of this activity. If there's one key point that I think we're making, it's that Australia should think about a strategic approach which would get the right people around the table to develop a strategy to maximise this. It's only going to be a limited investment; we understand that. But to make the most of a limited investment, it would be good to have a bit more strategic thinking behind it. Prof. Dagbanja : I think the Australian government has done well with the various committees that have been set up over the years looking at the question of Australia-Africa trade and investment. It's an area of research interest to me which I hope to pick up and build. But having that kind of strategic approach is crucial because part of it is the lack of knowledge. What are the opportunities? What are the opportunities in the system, and how can we utilise them? If we don't have the knowledge, there is no way we can really act, so we need that kind of strategic approach to thinking about the engagement between the two continents, identifying the opportunities, the challenges and how to go about addressing them. If we do that, I'm sure we can work in a manner that will be mutually beneficial to the two continents. Prof. Mickler : I have just one quick, final point on that one. We might look to Canada, who have just put out their own national strategy for Canada-Africa relations. We often look to Canada for other comparative reasons, but they're in a similar position. I think Australia and Canada are the two largest mining investors into Africa. They have similar diaspora populations and similar Commonwealth connections. But they've already taken the step of putting together a national strategy—I think it was about six months ago. This is something that we could look at as a model for Australia. CHAIR: Mr Rebello. Mr REBELLO: Thank you for being here. I have a few questions for you. The first is in relation to the demographic findings. One of the things you've found is that migrants from north, west and southern Africa have a higher prevalence of tertiary qualifications than other overseas migrants and the Australian-born population as well. However, unemployment for African migrants is higher than for other migrants and Australians, which is insane. Can you tell me why you think that is the case. Prof. Mickler : Certainly. Part of that is to do with the migration stream. We have migration policy that brings people here from different regions where many come through on skilled visas, as opposed to people from other regions of the world. Migration policy does play a role in who comes here and what level of qualifications they have. But I think it also speaks to the mismatch of qualifications and employment, and the role of discrimination that gets in the way of that, which my colleague spoke of earlier. This is something that we have identified; people are not necessarily working in the jobs that they are fully qualified to be doing. You would look at some of the barriers that have prevented them from doing so. My colleagues can probably expand on some of those points. Ms Goredema : Just to build on the migration aspect, there's definitely a skill-assessment process for most countries in order for you to be seen as having a relevant qualification at the required level. Those criteria is met upon entry. But then, in practice, that's the question we are putting towards industry and communities. What is happening so that, at the entrance, your qualification is seen as relevant and at the required level, but then in practice—what happens, and what are the challenges that people are facing? Some of the respondents in our survey have acknowledged that, yes, discrimination does play a role. However, they've also found ways to be innovative around discrimination, like looking for self-employment, creating their own businesses or reaching out to different associations and professional associations to get more support navigating the corporate world or workplaces—things that they need to face with. So, yes; there's a discordance, but it's really about an open conversation regarding some of the discrimination that people experience. Mr REBELLO: I'll touch on the discrimination in a moment. You have a lot of people migrating to Australia from non-African nations. They seem to have similar challenges in terms of the translation of their qualifications to Australia. Apart from the discrimination, is there any other barrier specific to people migrating from African countries that makes it more difficult for their degrees or their qualifications to be translated and recognised in Australia? Prof. Dagbanja : I can respond to that. I mentioned the case of the legal profession. If you come from South Africa and you want to get into the legal profession, you probably will be required to complete roughly four units from the Legal Practice Board of Western Australia. If you come from any other African country, you essentially need to complete everything. Now, if you look at, say, the US, there's a measure of recognition of prior legal practice experience if you seek to enter into the profession from the UK and so forth. Of course, people from the UK also need to complete a certain number of units—around four units or thereabouts. But if you come from the African region, you essentially need to go back to school. That is what I did. I am a typical example of that. And, in fact, even while I was teaching in the University of Western Australia, my permanent resident visa application was refused because I had not gone for an English language test to prove my competency in English. Even though I was teaching in the university, I needed permanent residence to continue the same job. So I think it is peculiar. I wouldn't say that Africans and black people are targeted; I wouldn't say so. It's probably that Africa was not a priority for Australia in terms of economic engagement, and somebody hasn't sat down to think through what people are bringing to the Australian continent. So I think there's a case for saying that people of African background go through peculiar challenges that others may not necessarily go through. Prof. Mickler : One other factor that might be important here is the longevity, or the lack of longevity, of the African communities here relative to other communities and the role that professional networks play over time in helping people get into employment. We hear from many of the African diaspora members that they don't have those professional networks yet in Australia, and it takes time to build those. They're obviously crucial in terms of translating your qualifications into employment. They play an important role in identifying jobs and, obviously, in knowing people in the industry and things like that. So a lot of the work we do is with the African professional associations who are really trying to promote African professionals in the different fields and the business connections that come with that. So it might be a factor of time as well. Mr REBELLO: Just stemming from that point, I put a question to the previous witnesses, from the Organisation of African Communities in Western Australia, about the diaspora unit in DFAT, which was a suggestion from you. And they seemed very supportive of it. It's a very practical suggestion from a policy perspective. Could you talk about the effect that that could have, putting people with experience not only at the centre of foreign affairs policy but also at the centre of trade policy. How would that situation compare to what we currently have? Prof. Mickler : I think this idea of diaspora diplomacy is a really interesting one. It's certainly something that African governments use, in terms of courting the diaspora and seeing them as an important source of knowledge and, potentially, resources and remittances and so on. From the Australian government side, I don't think there's been a systematic thinking through of how to engage the diaspora for the purposes of developing foreign policy or economic policy. It's done in an ad hoc way around particular issues; we don't have a structure that brings the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade into a regular dialogue with diaspora communities. Mr REBELLO: Are you aware if other countries have a diaspora unit or something like that? Prof. Mickler : I know African governments have diaspora units in their own governments to engage their diaspora. In terms of Western countries— Mr REBELLO: Or Australia. Prof. Mickler : I'm not sure. But when we say 'diaspora unit', that would be a unit to engage all diasporas, not just African diasporas. Mr REBELLO: Yes. Prof. Mickler : But we would obviously advocate for the African diaspora to have a role in that. It's about giving those with that knowledge and experience a more direct way to engage government because of all the business connections, the knowledge of markets and the cultural knowledge that would benefit the Australian government in how it would then set policy for engaging in those regions. I think it would be a relatively simple mechanism creating a dialogue in a more structured way that could really think things through, because Australia is a multicultural nation with many diasporas here, and the foreign policy should draw on that as a resource. But we currently, as far as I can see, don't have a formal structure to capture that in a regular way. CHAIR: Alright, we might have to finish there today. Thank you very much for your time here. It's been very useful. If you have been asked to provide any additional information, please forward that to the secretariat. Please note that responses to questions on notice will be published on the website as submissions to the inquiry. You will be sent a copy of the transcript of your evidence to assist you with answering any questions taken on notice today, and you will have an opportunity to request corrections to any transcription errors..