WATTS, Professor Mimmie Claudine, Private capacity [by video link] Subc ommittee met at 10:06 CHAIR ( Mrs Phillips ): I declare open this public hearing of the Trade Subcommittee of the Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade for the inquiry into strengthening Australia's trade and investment relations with Africa. I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land on which we meet today. I would like to pay my respects to elders past and present. I also acknowledge the cultures of any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people present with us today. This hearing will be broadcast on the parliament's website, and the proof and official transcripts of the proceedings will be published on the committee's webpage. I remind members of the media who may be present or listening on the web of the need to fairly and accurately report the proceedings of the subcommittee. Welcome, Professor Watts. Do you have any comments to make on the capacity in which you appear? Prof. Watts: Thank you. It's my pleasure to join you for the inquiry into strengthening Australia's trade and investment relations with Africa. I am appearing today in my own personal capacity, but I hold other portfolios, including being the chair of the Australian African Institute; the chair of the African Scientific, Research and Innovation Council African Union Commission in Australia; the chair of [inaudible] for Africa; and the convener of the Australian African Diaspora Women's Summit. CHAIR: Thank you. Although the subcommittee does not require you to give evidence under oath, I should advise you that this hearing is a legal proceeding of the parliament. The giving of false or misleading evidence is a serious matter and may be regarded as a contempt of parliament. The evidence given today will be recorded by Hansard and attracts parliamentary privilege and is being broadcast live. I now invite you to make a brief opening statement before we proceed to discussion. Prof. Watts: Thank you. As I said, I am the chair of the African Scientific, Research and Innovation Council African Union Commission, which is a continental platform for the African continent initiated under the leadership of the 55 African heads of state. I'm also the chair of the council of [inaudible], a privately funded initiative through the African continent, amongst other portfolios. I have been an academic here in Australia for over two decades. My work spans Australia and Africa, and I have published in some of the best journals. As an academic, what I have found is that the relationships— CHAIR: I'm sorry, Professor. We're having real trouble hearing. Could you please begin your opening statement again. Prof. Watts: I chair the African Scientific, Research and Innovation Council African Union Commission here in Australia. I'm also the chair of the [inaudible], an African business language and African continental language initiative, amongst other responsibilities. I've been an academic here at some of our big public universities for the last two decades, with other international appointments at other renowned universities around the world. I stand here in my capacity as a professor, independently, to share insights into relationships and why it is important for Australia to strengthen but also to build new partnerships with Africa within the context of the inquiry into strengthening Australia's trade and investment relations with Africa. This year alone I have been to Ethiopia, to Egypt and to Nigeria, and I came back from Zimbabwe only three days ago via South Africa. The opportunities for partnerships and relationships, including knowledge transfer between Australia and Africa, are significant. I think and I believe that this is something that should be encouraged and supported through formal but also informal networks. I am one of those people that you call African diaspora but also a 'brain drain' to Australia, because I was recruited to come to this country. As I always say, I arrived on Saturday and I was at work on Monday, and that has been my life now for the past almost quarter of a century, since I've called Australia home. Over that period, what I have learnt through my different roles and responsibilities has been that Africa is still seen through the lens of colonisation across most parts of Australia. The relationships that we've got with the continent are very limited to the extractive industries. That said, there are over 200 Australian mining companies operating on the African continent, with over 150 of those listed on the ASX, which tells you that there is something that Australian businesses see in Africa. However, there are other opportunities. I'm hoping that the honourable members within this inquiry took the time to read the submission that I and one of your colleagues here in Melbourne, the honourable Bronwyn Halfpenny, put together in relation to this inquiry. When you read the document, you see it is very clear that we are not harnessing the opportunities that we could for Africa here in Australia. As somebody who calls herself one of the leading members of the African Australian diaspora here but also abroad, I can say that they're not utilising people like me to optimise the benefit not just for Australia but also for Africa. So it is an honour to be here today, not just to listen but also to share some insights and, hopefully, propose a way forward on how we could strengthen these relationships but also how some of the opportunities that I know exist, through my firsthand interactions across the continent, can be harnessed for the benefit of our country, Australia. CHAIR: Thank you very much, Professor Watts, for your opening statement. We certainly appreciate you being here today. In your submission you recommend a greater utilisation of the Australia Awards alumni. Could you expand on that for us. What would you like to see, and how could that benefit growing trade with Africa? Prof. Watts: One of the key things I think Australia has to its benefit is—coming from the state of education, Victoria, I think education is something that we can pride ourselves in. Being an academic, I can state firsthand that there is a growing African Australian alumni who reside here but also a lot who came through the AusAID program—the name has changed over the years but within the caveat of that program—and have returned home to their respective countries. Once people have returned to their countries, more often than not, they form an alumni. As an academic I have had the privilege of interacting over the years with a lot of these alumni because, by default, they find me; they identify me. At one point, I actually hosted the wedding of one of your alumni in my own home, which was really an honour. When they return home, I think they are natural ambassadors for Australia because they understand the education system, they understand the people and, to an extent, they understand the culture. Most often, they work in positions of influence within their governments and within the private sector that could, if supported, benefit Australia but also their home countries. I really highlight the benefit for both sides because I look at it as an equal partnership but also as a relationship that should be mutually beneficial, to both sides. For example, when my dear friend the honourable Bronwyn Halfpenny decided to go to Africa for the first time last year, I went with her with the different groups on the African continent in the different countries that she had to go to—being Ghana and Nigeria—to support her visit. One of the groups that received her in Nigeria was the Australian African alumni. How did I get into that group? I had met some of those AusAID students, primarily medical doctors and workers in the health sector, who had come to Australia circa 2011, 2012 and 2013, at least a decade ago, to do their Master of Public Health here, some here at the University of Melbourne, some in Canberra and others all over the place. My home became a place where they would convene, because they did not have family and, by default, I was an academic. I had also studied and done a Master of Public Health myself, years ago, at the University of Melbourne. So we could connect at a personal level but also at the intellectual and academic levels, in addition to me being a mentor for them studying in Australia, a very different system to where they came from. What she talked about when she met the group was the type of reception. Within a very short period of time, the group organised to meet her. They had a formal meeting where some of the alumni leading some of the big hospitals but also working in some of the leading government institutions in Nigeria were able to support her as well at a personal level during that visit. But it was also about what she learnt and the interactions that she had. In meeting them, she expressed that there was a type of connection between her and them because the people knew where she was coming from, but she also understood and felt like she was in the presence of people that had known her for some time. That is because of the shared historical connection but also the appreciation that they still had for what Australia had given them. They were not only giving back to that individual; they were appreciative of that. They took the skills that they had acquired here, and now they are sharing and building and doing what AusAID is supposed to be doing: returning to your home country and helping in the building of the nation. So I think these are groups that we should naturally tap into, amongst other informal but also structured formal groups, across the entire African continent. That is only one example. I can give you an example of the alumni from Cameroon; I was born in Cameroon. One of the alumni, for example, is Dr Philippe [inaudible], who I know became one of the forerunners in working on some of those areas around pandemics in the continent. He, of course, like others, came here and did a Master of Public Health amongst other things. So there are so many examples I could give. These are natural groups, and I think we should really encourage utilising the skill sets but also the relationships that we have built and the Australian investment in these people, who are very, very appreciative and are very keen to give back as well. CHAIR: Can I just clarify something. Are you calling for more Australia Awards participants, or are you calling for better networks? What would you like to see? Prof. Watts: Both. I would love to see us increase the number of awards that we give. From memory, I think there were 44. There are 1.2-plus billion people on the African continent. Australia is a big country; we can do more. But, for existing alumni that have already come and studied, I think we should have common platforms where we bring these people together. Most of them, by their own accord and within their own initiatives, tend to interact and link in with the Australian missions in countries of residence more often than not but not in a structured way. We could have more structured pathways to make these formal networks even more formal so that, if we needed to get into a country, we would know that we have these natural spaces. Had I not been connected to that member of parliament, she would not have known that that group was there or, even if she knew, she would not have even known how to access them. But, because we had these existing relationships on both sides, it was very easy. And, within the few days that she was there, they made her feel at home and really supported her at a professional but also at a personal level. I say that because these people are, more often than not, high achievers and leaders and they're respected. Beyond working in the public service or private sector, they tend to also own businesses. So they really cut across different areas. So there are multiple ways that we can engage with them. I will always advocate for increasing the number of scholarships and tapping into these existing networks. Let's invest and make them more formal and more structural. CHAIR: Thank you. Mr Georganas. Mr GEORGANAS: Thank you very much for talking to us and appearing today. In your submission, you talk about a list of Australian businesses that are on the African continent. With that particular list, how would such an inventory be approached in terms of the data that would be most beneficial to Australia, and where are the gaps at the moment? You'd think that there would be some sort of data about Australian businesses that are currently doing business in Africa. There must be gaps in it, but surely there's a list somewhere. You would know much better than me. Prof. Watts: I tend to say this all the time: I am honoured to be probably one of the African Australians who actually know Africa and who are very present. I visit Africa at least five times every year, and I've been given the opportunity to go through the five geopolitical regions of the continent frequently. When you look at the opportunities, you see there is an informal Australian presence. Unfortunately, because we really don't have trade offices on the continent, data is limited, and I think that is where people like me come in to work with you through the academic space but also through the African cultural lens to support and put a type of database together. I think we could do that through the Australian African Institute. I think a lot of the information that I have is because of my direct contact, like when I travel into countries—for example, being in Zimbabwe last week and talking to people who we're visiting but also who, by default, know you're coming from Australia. Then it's like, 'Oh, yes, we know this Australian business.' But also, when the honourable Bronwyn Halfpenny went to Nigeria—again, through another colleague and friend—she was able to visit and meet an Australian startup that was doing very, very well in that country. And there is lots of this. But, again, because we really are limited as Australia in terms of our partnerships and our relationships with the continent beyond the extractive industries, these industries and businesses, even though they are thriving, are not available. One of the key areas that I will highlight here will be the housing industries, for example. One of the things, I think, when you get into Africa, is that it is very diverse. There are opportunities in terms of cheap housing. While I was in Nigeria in March and April this year, it was an opportunity, because Australia needs housing. But I could identify that you could do cheap housing in that country for students below US$5,000 per unit. How are they doing it? And here's the way of doing it. So how do we as Australia then also learn and see how we can adopt that? So I think there are opportunities. There are Australian businesses that are thriving formally and informally, and we've got an opportunity to work with them directly and indirectly, but we need to have a formal structure in place. So I'm really happy and really pleased that this inquiry is in place. CHAIR: Mr Batt, I'll go to you. Mr BATT: You talk in your submission about encouraging people-to-people links into Africa through attending trade and industry expos in Africa. How do you see us supporting those businesses in Australia to get to these expos? Is it something that the Australian government should be involved in, or is there another way? Prof. Watts: There are multiple platforms, and thank you, honourable member, for that question and for the interest, of course, in the merits of such relationships. There are two ways that we could build these partnerships. First of all, person-to-person relationships are very, very, very important in Africa and trust is important. It is not just getting up, going and saying, 'We are these people, and this is what we want to do.' Establishing a relationship is very important. What you have is your Australian African diaspora. What you have is people like me who are already present in those spaces. I was in Zimbabwe at the invitation of the African Scientific, Research and Innovation Council African Union Commission for a workshop for four days. It was very, very intense. The 25 invited participants of that workshop came, primarily, from the science academies across the continent. What I learnt, and it was evident through such networks—these people are appointed by the governments of their countries—was that it gives us the opportunity to organise whatever we want to organise, through those established formal networks that are approved by the government. Something that is really important in Africa is understanding the diversity across the continent but also the importance of working within existing frameworks and linking in with government positions and government and the legalities of those countries. To think about trade on the continent we can work with existing platforms, such as those, but also we can work with chambers of commerce, for example, to see how we build into existing frameworks that they are already building. The week before, I gave a keynote in Egypt, at the Africa Health ExCon, at the invitation of the Egyptian government. The Africa Health ExCon brings together experts across every industry that is related to health, from manufacturing through to acute health services and allied health care, across every sphere. When I first attended, in 2023, President El-Sisi opened the conference in person. There were over 40,000 participants over the five days that I was there. And, this time, the numbers were also big. These are natural platforms that the governments have already invested in. We know, for example, Egypt is a leader when it comes to tech and innovation across the African continent in different ways. So building on something like the Africa Health ExCon and having an exhibition, for example, during those formal gatherings is an opportunity for us to begin to have a foothold. We also have existing institutions. I'm very much in the health, education and private sectors, as in business, because of my own work over the years. Another example, in Nigeria, was my being at the private Cairo Hospital Abuja, which is run by an orthopaedic surgeon, Dr Mohammed Hesham. He not only works in that area as a surgeon but also uses stem cell technologies. Over the last few years or so, we've created a partnership and relationship with one of the Australian businesses that is working in this tech space. I was able to bring the two together and step away, and they are building a relationship on their own in terms of knowledge exchange around stem cells. Those are things that Australian citizens like me are doing privately, in terms of that knowledge transfer but also knowledge exchange between the two continents. There are opportunities. Those are just three examples from within the last few months and as recently as last week that I think we could tap into. I believe that it is really important to not reinvent the wheel. Yes, innovation is important, but if we have existing natural groups we should build on them. But that shouldn't stop us from being innovative and thinking about new ways of doing things. Having that visibility of the Australian African leadership—we don't have visibility of your Australian Africans in this country, who are leaders in so many areas. Probably, until this inquiry, most of you did not know that I existed. Yet I am one of the first influential African Australian academics known outside of Australia. I'm known very well here in Victoria, but not in other spaces, when it comes to business but also other industries. I think it is really important that we start making and ensuring this visibility. That also means having people in the trade spaces—appointments, commissioners—between Australia and Africa who are people of African descent. I don't think there is a single person of African descent in any senior executive position when it comes to trade in Australia. Interestingly, even those people who are looking after Africa—they don't have anybody who is of African descent. For me, that would be a challenge as well—to say, 'Let's me introspective and look at what is going on and how we change that.' Until we have those spaces and those people there as leaders, I think we will be making the same mistakes. Yet we've got this natural resource that we should be tapping into, and let's harness that. Mr BATT: Thank you. CHAIR: Ms Jarrett. Ms JARRETT: It's an extension, in a sense, of the question that Mr Batt asked. One of the things we've heard during this hearing has been the importance of the role that women play in the trade space in terms of not just promotion but actively being a part of trade between Africa and Australia. I noticed that, in your report, you touch on the importance of the Global Business Women and Women in Mining Africa. You suggest that we need to better engage those groups. I'm assuming there are others. What I really want to know is what good engagement actually looks like. You've just talked about the importance of having African born people in key positions, but who leads it? Are there certain countries? Do we have to look at this over a long term and have some continuous activities? What do you think that looks like? Prof. Watts: I think that's a great question. My work over the years has really highlighted and featured women. Why? Because I found that it was a space where women, especially here, were naturally lacking. I'm going to use the word black. Black women are visibly absent in Australia in leadership positions. That is a fact, and you can look at that across every sphere across every industry. Does that mean that they are not doing things? No, they are, but they are not in those spaces where they can be visible. I served as a commissioner for multicultural affairs here in Victoria from 2015 to 2019, and, over that period, one of the things that I identified was the gap in having women, especially women of colour, black women, in those spaces. That is how I started the African Diaspora Women's Summit. We're having the next summit in November here in Melbourne from 17 to 21 November. That is very, very intentional and to address exactly some of what you've highlighted and what you have identified, because we realise that you have women in business, you have women in leadership and you have women in STEM from these groups, but nobody knows about them and their work. We're not just looking at those that are Australian based, but we're really trying to see how we can bring people from overseas who are leaders and are recognised in these spaces who can enhance some of that work. I am the vice president of the Circle of Global Business Women, and I have been co-opted to the South African women in mining. When I gave them a keynote last year, somehow, they invited me to become a member because of my work. I believe that women are the cornerstone of business not just in Australia. Over 70 per cent of small businesses in Africa are led by women. They are the backbone. If we're going to do anything in trade between Australia and Africa, we must include women. When you look here and you think about how many women are running small businesses, they go underrecognised because, more often than not, small businesses are a struggle all the time. And, of course, we know a lot of women are doing unpaid work and, as a result, there's little recognition for that work. There's impetus for us to have women leaders, especially black women but also women of African descent. If I just say African women, it could be misleading, because, when you look at the African continent from north to south and east to west, we are a rainbow. We've got everybody of every colour. But the black woman is absent. So it's really imperative that, in business, especially because of the work that these women are doing, we include them and visibly have them in those leadership spaces. We've got the opportunity, we've got the resources, we've got the capacity and we've got the capability. I think it's just about having the goodwill and the intention to make this happen. I'm not saying that we hand people things that they don't deserve. I think we're talking about very capable women who are not given the opportunity. Ms JARRETT: Are there certain countries or sectors, though, where we could prioritise our efforts? What's the role of government in this? Prof. Watts: When it comes to countries, Africa functions on a regional basis. As somebody who chairs the African Scientific, Research and Innovation Council African Union Commission, I always advocate that we have to have regional representation. What do I mean by that? Let's think about the five geopolitical regions. Whatever we are doing, we should think about having a presence from the north, from the centre, from the west, from the east and from the south. I'm happy to work with you to identify the countries that you would like to go into. But we also have to think about non-English-speaking Africa. There is a tendency to go where everybody has been going. So we go to East Africa, and there's nothing wrong with going to those, but I think there are better opportunities in some of the spaces that are not traditionally where everybody goes to. So, when you talk about East Africa, everybody will think of Kenya. Kenya is great with education et cetera. My observation is that it's saturated—in a good way. We think about southern Africa. You can think about which countries come to mind, but how many countries are in southern Africa? So I think my suggestion, without listing any countries on this platform, would be to identify and work with some of those countries that are not traditionally on your list. I was amazed when I went to Senegal a couple of years ago at the invitation of the Senegalese government. Senegal is a French-speaking country. And, yes, I speak French to an extent. However, the infrastructure took me aback in a very, very good way. They had electric buses on the streets. Having wi-fi on your bus is something that you expect in a place like that. When you are in Ethiopia, you look at the organisation and you look at the infrastructure. I was there again as recently as two months ago. Again, these are places that we should tap into. So, when we think about going into Africa, I suggest we think about the non-traditional spaces. Why Ethiopia? Because Ethiopia is the political capital of Africa. When you think about Ethiopia, almost every diplomatic corps is present in Ethiopia and almost every international agency is present there because of the presence of the African Union Commission. But the infrastructure is amazing. Over the years, I've had the opportunity to visit that country many times, and having appointments at two regional universities, which are very old universities in the country as well, gave me the opportunity to understand that, yes, they've got their challenges. However, there's one thing that is present across the board. There's growth, and there's aspiration, but they also have the population. Ethiopia has over 100 million people, Egypt has over 100 million and Nigeria has over 200 million. So we have a burgeoning middle class in some of these countries. You go to places like Cameroon, with like 30 million people, Ghana, South Africa et cetera. But we also have the smaller African countries. Think about Rwanda when we talk about government emancipation and the relationships with government. Rwanda, for example, has been leading the presence and the leadership of women in parliaments of the world for over 15 years now. They had 68 per cent presence of women in parliament. I think the number now is 64 per cent of women representation in parliament. How do we learn from that? How did they do it? Why have they been so successful? Google a map and look at Rwanda 25 years ago and then look at Rwanda of 2026 and see the difference. How did they achieve that? What can we learn? When you talk about which countries we can go into, I think we can go into any country. But there are examples that I would suggest that we start from without going to the natural spaces that people would normally go into, as well. What is the role of government? I think this is the beginning of it. The fact that the Australian government identifies that there is a gap in terms of its relationship in trade with Africa is really, really important. For me, if we can work government to government with these countries to make this happen, more often than not that is the easiest approach. We can think about business to business as well, but when you start going business to business it can become complicated. So let's use our government relationships and work with partners, partner governments, across the five geopolitical regions. We really also have to think beyond English-speaking Africa to non-English-speaking Africa, because the growth across the entire African continent will amaze you. You'll be very, very surprised, in a good way. CHAIR: Thank you. Ms Clutterham. Ms CLUTTERHAM: Professor Watts, I was interested in recommendation 6 in your submission, which is about a targeted science and innovation policy framework. Could you expand a bit more on what that would look like. What universities were you thinking on the African continent? Where are they located? What would a joint degree look like? You're talking about degrees in science; that's obviously very broad. What fields of science were you particularly focused on? Prof. Watts: I think I have referenced the African Scientific, Research and Innovation Council African Union Commission a few times. The reason I've referenced that is that I am the Australian chair. I was appointed by the chairs of the science academies, which are representatives from all the countries on the continent. I'd like people to read a little bit about ASRIC African Union Commission online so they can have a look at the mandate of that. Science and technology is the backbone of innovation on the African continent and anywhere in the world, and we are living in the forward industry revolution of artificial intelligence. If any country or any continent has to develop, you cannot ignore innovation. For you to not be able to ignore innovation, that means you're not going to be able to ignore science, technology and, to an extent, health. Breaking down the question, there are key areas where I see an opportunity in terms of universities, noting there are over 8,000 universities in Africa and different countries, based on population, have got different numbers of universities. Africa also is the continent with the first university and place of learning registered in the world, in Morocco. We know that. Being in Morocco, it was also very, very evident to me why it is the seat of knowledge. Universities are in tiers: there are public, and then there are private. Are we interested in private, or are we interested in public? Over the years, what I have done is lead and sign MOUs, with some of the leading universities in Africa, between Australian and African universities. Through that, the relationships that have developed between academic staff in some of those institutions have been magnificent. So we have to think about the tier of the university. In Australia, we have our Group of 8 universities, and then we have our middle- and new-generation universities. It's the same thing with Africa. Think about your old universities that were established post-independence and, of course, before independence in the fifties and sixties. Then you've got your newer universities that came in the eighties and nineties. And, of course, there has been a big, growing private sector in the last two decades as well. If we're thinking about partnerships, we should really be thinking about what universities. It is also not uncommon for universities to take partnerships to Africa and, if the universities are not on par with the African universities, they will reject that. I know to an extent that African institutions have rejected and not recognised qualifications from students who have come from certain types of universities abroad, because they don't believe that those standards meet their own standards as well. That's something we should bear in mind. That said, Africa is also very, very open to academic institutions. Travelling in Egypt, I saw the American university which I've visited in the past, a German university, and UK universities—name them; you've got all of them. What was visibly absent to me across the African continent—and I mean across the African continent—was the presence of an Australian-African university. There's not a single one. Monash historically, of course, had that campus that was sold off years ago. We are absent. Yet in my state, for example, Victoria, we are the education state in this country. Sorry, members, but that is what I think! Victoria is the education state. I see that as an opportunity, especially in science and innovation. What science, then, are we talking about? Science comes across different spheres. There's the hardcore science: your physics, your chemistry et cetera. There are those institutions that specialise in those areas, which we can work with. We've also got what we call the pan-African universities that are located across the different five geopolitical regions. Again, that was purposeful by African heads of state, through the African Union, to establish this in order to give some of the best students on the continent an opportunity to study across the different areas of the continent. Then we have got the health sciences, which are very, very present. If you know Africa, you know one of the challenges is filling the gaps of healthcare professionals, not because they don't train enough but because there is the 'brain drain' abroad. Most of the trained personnel leave abroad because it's easier and cheaper for governments abroad to take those people. When we think about science, we think about STEMM—science, technology, engineering, mathematics and medicine. There are gaps across all these areas. Because of the vast middle class but also the fast-growing youth dividend on the continent, ready for knowledge, hungry for knowledge, we can literally really go into any country. For me, in that space, I will think about some of our big key players. If I'm going to think about disaster management, I'll be thinking about North Africa because of the historical presence and some of the work that I know is being done there because I've sat in the rooms with some of those people. Then, if I think, for example, about political science, I'll be thinking about a place like Cameroon, which is why, strategically, the African Union established its political science in that country. Then, if I think about space technology, again, South Africa is where that's established. It depends on what you really need. On innovation and tech, a lot of that has been established in East Africa through Kenya. West Africa has a lot in that agricultural space. That is something that I think we should expand—that agricultural space—because food technology, food science and food sustainability is really, really a priority area that I think we can really work across on the African continent. Australia has got a lot of technology, and ASRIC is all about knowledge transfer and partnerships. We can engage with ASRIC, which is established by the African Union Commission. This will just give me an opportunity, if you give me a few minutes, to talk about ASRIC itself, which is the African Scientific, Research and Innovation Council. The members of the council are made up of the chairs of the science academies of every country on the African continent. The majority of them are current or past vice-chancellors of universities, and one of those that I've worked with has been a vice-chancellor in three different public universities in his country, and that is significant. These are government appointees, but to become a member of a science academy there are all these processes, caveats and criteria that people have to meet. And, because the African heads of state ensured and mandated that every African country should have a national science academy, these institutions are highly regarded. They're very prestigious. And they will be some of the spaces that we could tap into. If we want to talk to 1,000 scientists across different spheres on the African continent tomorrow, that is where I come in with my role as the ASRIC chair. This is the natural science platform but at the continental level rather than at the national levels. The members come from all 55 countries. I also want to iterate that I say 55 countries rather than 54 countries because the African Union recognises Western Sahara as an independent country. Hence, they've got 55 countries, whereas the UN talk of 54 countries, because they don't yet recognise it, which I hope they should at some point. So, when I refer to 55 countries, that's the reason. CHAIR: Thank you. We've got a final question from Senator Colbeck. Senator COLBECK: Off the back of that—I don't know whether this was covered while I was out in divisions—how does that translate into your recommendation with respect to the alumni from those institutions? Prof. Watts: The good thing with some of our alumni is that they've also come here. Specifically, the majority of those that I have had interaction with came through in the science spaces, I guess because that's my own background, being in the science and health sciences area together—and, of course, leadership and policy by default—I interact more with those groups of people. So that is another natural space. As I said before, when you think about engaging on the African continent, it's really important to work within government frameworks. It is easier, it is more direct, but you know that it is highly regulated. I know that people have perceptions about government, but we cannot learn our policies from the media alone. You need to be able to interact and go within those countries and have those established platforms like ASRIC. The congress comes together at least twice a year. They work across different countries of the continent because they have to report back every year to the African Union Commission, directly to the heads of state. Hence, going into a platform like that is leverage for Australia, because we're talking directly to the 55 heads of state through that science platform. When you go through the alumni, you'll be working with small groups of individuals in a country at an independent level. They are small and independent, and they're not structured, and they don't report to anybody except themselves. ASRIC has got a mandate not from a national government but from a government at the continental level. So it's a unique opportunity, especially in that science space, which is very intentional in terms of knowledge transfer, because knowledge transfer is one of the key mandates that they have to work with governments, to work with the diaspora and to work across regions. Something that I think I did not mention is the African free trade zone established by the African Continental Free Trade Area agreement that was signed a few years ago. I mention that in the submission. That is something that we should be tapping into, working in parallel with organisations like ASRIC but also with AfCFTA. Why? Because these are mandates of the government. There are frameworks, and they've got to produce and they've got to demonstrate that they are achieving the mandate that they've been created to achieve. So, for me, those will be your natural platforms to harness. With the work that I'm leading through the [inaudible] African business language—again, being continental, we've got a council in place that I chair as well. The council has representation from across the five geopolitical regions, primarily scientists, with some coming from engineering, some coming from policy and some coming from education. But we also have our linguistic scientists. So it's very, very diverse at the same time. There are these natural spaces that we could tap into. For me, why reinvent the wheel when we've got these natural groups that are already doing exceptionally well and are going to be facilitators, especially if we have limited resources? Senator COLBECK: Thank you. CHAIR: That brings us to our conclusion. Thank you very much for your time today. If you have been asked to provide any additional information, please forward it to the secretariat. Please note that responses to questions on notice will be published on the website as submissions to the inquiry. You will be sent a copy of the transcript of your evidence to assist you with answering any questions taken on notice today, and you will have an opportunity to request corrections to any transcription errors. Subc ommittee adjourned at 11:07