COPEMAN, Mr James, Acting Deputy Commissioner, Regional Operations, Australian Border Force [by video link] GOODCHILD, Ms Tiali, First Assistant Secretary, Skilled and Temporary Visa and Capability Division, Department of Home Affairs KILEY, Mr Andrew, First Assistant Secretary, Migration, Citizenship and Humanitarian Policy Division, Department of Home Affairs LEO, Ms Anne, Assistant Secretary, Skilled Visas Branch, Department of Home Affairs MAIER, Ms Karin, Assistant Secretary, Skilled and Temporary Visa Policy, Department of Home Affairs SONTER, Rear Admiral Brett, Commander, Maritime Border Command, Australian Border Force [10:51] CHAIR: Welcome. I understand that information on parliamentary privilege and the protection of witnesses giving evidence to committees has been provided to you. Who's doing the opening statement? Mr Kiley : We don't have an opening statement today. As you can see, we've got officers from across Immigration Group, Border Force and Operation Sovereign Borders, so we're just happy to take questions from the committee and to help out where possible. CHAIR: Rear Admiral, you don't have an opening statement? Rear Adm. Sonter : I don't. CHAIR: Senator Smith. Senator DEAN SMITH: What new risks are emerging that present challenges in securing Australia's northern maritime borders? Rear Adm. Sonter : I'll start, and then Mr Copeman, if he feels that he can contribute to that, will do so. I wouldn't say there are any new risks. I would say that the threats are changing, so there are no new threats. We have seen illegal foreign fishing for a period of time. As you would appreciate, that happens in Australia, mostly around our northern approaches, although in recent times we have seen an increase specifically in the Torres Strait, which we're reacting to. And unauthorised maritime arrivals, since the inception of OSB in 2013, have always been something that we're dealing with. Senator DEAN SMITH: You said that the threats are changing. Can you explain to the committee what they're changing from and to. Rear Adm. Sonter : Sure. Illegal foreign fishing, which has been prevalent for a long period of time, generally used to focus on shark fin and those deeper level fishing activities. We're now seeing across Australia, and we have seen this probably since 2023, a change to the principal target being what's called trepang, sea cucumber. Sea cucumber happens to be around the entirety of Australia's north. In fact, Australia has, like it has for a lot of things, some of the best sea cucumber in the world. It's an attractive target not only because of the demand that it has in the Asian markets but also because of the subsequent cost that illegal activity gets. The trepang mostly reside in the shallows, closer to shore; hence, as you have seen in the media, we've seen illegal foreign fishing come closer to our shores. That's the change we've seen in illegal foreign fishing. In terms of unauthorised maritime arrivals, we saw a change happen in about 2022. It saw, largely, the change from large boats over long distances that would generally seek authorities—so coming closer to our shores and then proactively seeking our authorities for assistance—to what is now known as very small ventures in terms of the number on board and being quite deceptive. So rather than seeking the officials they're seeking to avoid the officials moving forward. In a macro sense those are the changes to those two principal threats that we've seen—both around that 2022 period and moving on. Senator DEAN SMITH: Starting with the illegal fishing movements, what are you seeing in terms of vessels, skills of people on the vessels and appetite for risk taking? Rear Adm. Sonter : In terms of illegal foreign fishing, there's no real change. It's still the traditional Indonesian crew members. I would not say their skills have changed. Definitely, they've had to adapt in terms of how they fish, because fishing for trepang is a different skill set to fishing for something else. Largely, fishing for trepang is just walking around the shallows and scooping them up. It's not a unique skill, I would say. There's no real change either in the boats. The boats are very much the same as what we've seen for many years. In terms of the unauthorised maritime arrivals, I would say the boats have changed from what I described. Pre 2022, they were a lot larger boats because they were making longer distances in terms of their travel. Now, because the travel overseas is shorter, largely, what we're seeing are smaller boats. Again, I wouldn't say there's any new change in skill set. It's largely crew members that are looking to deliver a different passenger load or commodity. Senator DEAN SMITH: Does the smaller nature of the vessels and the deceptive operation style mean they are harder to detect? Rear Adm. Sonter : They are harder for us to detect. As you know, we've still got the same resources that are successful, but it is harder for us to detect them. Senator DEAN SMITH: Has the frequency increased? I'm assuming it's seasonal. Rear Adm. Sonter : The frequency has increased. Since about 2021-22, we have seen a frequency increase in unauthorised maritime arrivals. In 2022, for instance, there were seven. This year, from 1 January to 30 April, we saw 11. So we are definitely seeing a frequency increase in terms of number but, again, not in terms of passengers, because we're looking at smaller ventures and a smaller number of passengers compared to what it used to be: probably less frequent ventures but significantly more passengers. Senator DEAN SMITH: What was the number of unauthorised arrivals in 2023, 2024 and 2025? Rear Adm. Sonter : I gave you 2022, which was seven. In 2023 it was four. In 2024 it was 16. In 2025 it was 21. Then, as I said, this year to 30 April there were 11. Senator DEAN SMITH: Have the biosecurity risks increased over the last few years? Rear Adm. Sonter : I think that's a question best deferred to DAFF. That being said, we work very closely with them to make sure that we are addressing, as we find these threats, that biosecurity risk. Senator DEAN SMITH: Can you identify for me in which jurisdictions those arrivals took place? Rear Adm. Sonter : Not by jurisdiction—but what I can tell you at a macro level is it's in the north-west, largely in that north-west cape area, and then in a broad area in the north from the Tiwi Islands and across, then east through Arnhem Coast. Senator DEAN SMITH: What is your intelligence gathering saying to you in terms of future risks or future arrivals? Rear Adm. Sonter : It's telling us, in essence, persistence—so similar numbers and similar methodology: small boats, smaller amounts of passengers. Senator DEAN SMITH: Earlier in the year, I had the opportunity to travel to Malaysia and Thailand on matters relevant to Western Australia, and people drew to my attention the illegal migration patterns coming out of Cox's Bazar and Myanmar as a result of conflict and humanitarian issues. To what extent are you aware of that, and to what extent is that on your horizon in terms of alertness and preparedness? Rear Adm. Sonter : I'm very aware of what you described both from media articles and from our intelligence. We have good collaboration with our regional partners, a couple of which you mentioned, moving forward. In terms of the second part of your question, Operation Sovereign Borders is always planning for not only the here and now but also the possible. It's important to note that the intelligence assessment specific to what you're talking to, which is the Rohingya, is that in the near to medium term it's unlikely we will see a boat from that particular region in Australia. Senator DEAN SMITH: Going back to those numbers that you shared from 2022 to 2026, what's the location of embarkation? Which of our neighbours are they embarking at? Rear Adm. Sonter : Generally, I don't talk about that in a public forum, because of the sensitivity affiliated with that. But I'm confident to say to you that, as I said, we have arrangements with our Asian colleagues about addressing what we see is a transnational crime throughout our region. Senator DEAN SMITH: And you've seen no change in the pattern of that embarkation? Rear Adm. Sonter : No, not in the last couple of years. CHAIR: Thank you. Mr Smith. Mr MATT SMITH: Rear Admiral, Operation Broadstaff has been active in the Torres Strait since about February. One of the key components of that was the interaction of the ABF with local community elders, traditional owners, as a vast majority of what's happening is on sea country. Can you talk us through how the engagement with local communities is going and what the response has been? Rear Adm. Sonter : If it's okay with you, I might refer to James Copeman on this? He is leading in that particular area. Mr MATT SMITH: Please do. Mr Copeman : We've taken a really proactive approach with community throughout the Torres Strait and the Northern Peninsula Area. We are aware that we can't be everywhere at once, and it's great to be able to partner with community on what they're seeing on the ground and how they can feed that in. One of the steps that we've taken since Operation Broadstaff was established has been to get back to community when they have had some information that they've provided us, so really closing that loop to thank them for that. The other part of that is probably layered. One layer is the community engagement and then stepping up to the engagement that we have with councillors throughout the Torres Strait not only to ensure that they are also aware of the operational tempo that we're running but also for them to be able to then provide their constituents with some information about what's going on. We then raise that up to the state level, as well, then work with our partners across the Commonwealth to ensure that everyone's working on the same page. But it's critically important, as you've mentioned, to be able to make sure that the community are with us. Rear Adm. Sonter : I've visited there twice and I'm about to go back up there again. I now have regular engagement with the community via the community radio. I've had two interviews on radio, and it's now a monthly segment that I do with that radio to make sure that we're getting the message out. But, importantly, we're also providing an opportunity for the community to ask me questions moving forward. Mr MATT SMITH: That's fantastic. Moving forward, a lot of people up that way are pretty keen to be more actively involved professionally. They see it as an opportunity for work and economic development, particularly for some of the outer islands—Boigu, Saibai, Mer. Is that something that's on the radar or could be investigated further? Mr Copeman : I can confirm that I, myself, have had a number of engagements with community members and also with private operators and companies looking to be able to partner with government—not just the Australian Border Force or the wider Department of Home Affairs but also state governments and other sorts of work areas. We are looking at a variety of different programs. One thing that I'm acutely conscious of is making sure that we're in a position to be able to partner enduringly. One of the things that I've observed over my 20 years in the organisation—having worked in Far North Queensland, the Northern Territory and Western Australia—is that it's about making sure that those partnerships are not just for a financial year period; it's about how we can build on that over decades. So that is something that we are looking at progressing. Mr MATT SMITH: Can I just say for the record that we really appreciate the work that your guys are doing up there. It has made a lot of our communities feel a lot safer, the response of ABF to the illegal fishing and those incursions. I just want to make sure that you are aware that we do appreciate the work that your guys have put in. I've met many of the officers up there, and they're all fantastic. Mr Copeman : Thank you, Mr Smith. I'll pass that on. Mr MATT SMITH: I won't leave the visa guys out. Could you give us a bit of an update on how the negotiations are going with the statewide DAMAs for the NT, WA and Queensland? There has been a little bit of consternation from our businesses in Queensland, in particular, that the DAMAs won't be managed as efficiently. Mr Kiley : I might get Ms Maier to go into a bit more detail, but, just before I do, I want to talk through the approach we want to take with those statewide DAMAs. I know there has been some discussion around the move from regional DAMAs, being those designated migration area agreements, to statewide agreements. What we're looking to achieve through those is not to take away from the supports that we're currently providing to the regions but to make sure that we partner much more closely with the state and/or territory as a whole to properly understand what their statewide skills needs are, to understand how they're looking to address those skills needs with local workforce and where migration can fill a gap. It's about taking that statewide approach and ensuring that we, as a Commonwealth working with the jurisdiction, are still engaging closely with those regional areas to understand how their skills needs have evolved since those agreements were put in place and how we can continue to support their regional needs. Ms Maier can go into a bit more detail on each of the negotiations. Ms Maier : As Mr Kiley has covered, the department is in conversations across all jurisdictions around establishing state and territory DAMAs. The Northern Territory is a really good example of a DAMA that's operated at a jurisdictional territory level for a number of years, and the department has engaged with them. I think they're on their third iteration of their agreement. That's worked quite well, in terms of the Territory negotiating with the department, providing a business case with evidence of what's needed for their specific jurisdiction. For other jurisdictions that have regional DAMAs in place, there are conversations at a state level around what their needs might be, in terms of a statewide DAMA. Our expectation in our conversations with counterparts at state government level is that they should be engaging with those regional designated area representatives, in terms of what's required for their specific locational needs. The understanding is that each state led or territory led DAMA would represent the needs across all of the jurisdiction. Mr Kiley : A couple of points further to that: we recognise—particularly in Western Australia, where there are those regional DAMAs at the moment—the importance of the transitional arrangements. That's one of the things that we're working very closely with the WA government on: 'What's the move to the statewide DAMA? How are we supporting them through that?' But we're making sure that any concessions and pathways that were available through those regional DAMAs continue to be available as we move to the statewide DAMA as well. There have been some extensions to regional DAMAs to ensure they continue to operate whilst we conclude statewide DAMAs as well, so we're working extremely closely with jurisdictions on that. CHAIR: Are you still going? Mr MATT SMITH: No, I've had enough, I think. CHAIR: Senator Sterle. Senator STERLE: That's a great lead, Senator Smith, because we took evidence in Kununurra—the most beautiful place in Western Australia, let me tell you—and there are some real issues with the statewide DAMA there, as told to our offices. What they're clearly saying there is that the DAMA they need in Kununurra cannot be compared to Margaret River. Taking a six-pack out to Molly Springs on a Saturday arvo is not the same as sipping a beautiful sauvignon blanc down in Margaret River. Let me say this: if we did not have foreign workers, backpackers and the array of all the visas in the Kimberley, you wouldn't get a hamburger or a bed made, fuel poured or a feed. You wouldn't get a caravan park attendant—I don't have to keep going on, before I start with doctors and health specialists. So please bring us up to speed. I'm back in Kununurra the week after next, and I'm going to be sitting down with the shire president and Vernon, the CEO, to reiterate our conversations here. What confidence can I take back there that the agency or the department truly is going to home in on a regional-specific DAMA and not group us into the South West one—or anything else in the state, please? Mr Kiley : There are two things I want to touch on there. One of the things that have been really useful through the work that this committee has done is actually getting that feedback directly. We've taken time to read that evidence and that's been really informative for us to understand where there are concerns floating out around the move from regional DAMAs to statewide DAMAs. It is the government's intention to move to a statewide DAMA, so that will be where we go across all jurisdictions— Senator STERLE: That is the federal government's position, full stop? Mr Kiley : The federal government's position is to move to statewide DAMAs. We've had— Senator STERLE: Well, that's going to end in tears, but keep going. Mr Kiley : We've had extensive discussions with the WA government—I was over there in Perth a few weeks ago—on a range of issues, including touching on the DAMAs. What we can do—in terms of your ultimate question around providing confidence—is that we want to make sure that, working with the WA government, the DAMA we put in place works for all parts of WA—it is not a Perth- or a Margaret River-centric DAMA—and that the supports and concessions provided within that DAMA are tailored to the different regional needs of WA. That's what we'll be continuing to work on in Western Australia. Senator STERLE: Mr Kiley, that's very honourable, but I'm sorry: that just does not fill me with any confidence at all. It certainly won't fill the people in Kununurra and Wyndham and surrounds, or the whole Kimberley up there, with any confidence. I think that's something that I'll put on the record, Chair, as a Western Australian senator. This is going to give me heartburn, and I'm going to take the fight up with my own government on this, because that's not going to fly. I'm not having a crack at you guys—thank you very much; I appreciate that—but that is just really stupid thinking coming from Canberra—really crazy crap. Anyway, I've had me spruik. CHAIR: Do you have any— Senator DEAN SMITH: I do, actually, yes. Can you explain to me: what is the rationale for moving from the existing DAMA arrangements to state DAMA arrangements? Mr Kiley : As I was saying earlier, the intention behind it is to ensure that we're working extremely closely with states and territories through not just the state and territory DAMA, or the specific DAMA for their jurisdiction, but broader state and territory migration plans that we're looking to put in place with each jurisdiction, to understand what jurisdictional workforce needs are, what the jurisdiction is doing to support those workforce needs from a local workforce development perspective, and where the gaps can then be served by particular migration pathways. As you will know, there are a range of migration pathways that exist to support the regions, and what we're looking to do is to understand where specific concessions through the DAMAs—be it age, salary or additional occupations that might not be available through the standard migration program—are necessary but to do that in a consolidated and coordinated way across each jurisdiction and then use the state and territory migration plans to ensure that the states and territories, as well, are looking at the broader wraparound supports that are really important to ensure that, when migrants arrive in the regions, they're supported and it supports their long-term stay. Senator DEAN SMITH: But why is it necessary to disturb the existing arrangements in order to achieve those outcomes? Mr Kiley : The intention is not to— Senator DEAN SMITH: Disturbing the existing arrangements, as Senator Sterle has said—and I was in Kununurra also—is causing a tremendous amount of unnecessary angst and anxiety and disrupting people from doing what they need to be doing: running their local businesses in challenging regional environments. Mr Kiley : The intention is to ensure that support continues to be provided but to do so through consolidated state and territory DAMAs rather than disaggregated regional DAMAs. Senator DEAN SMITH: But in a state like Western Australia—a state that Senator Sterle and I know very well—it's actually not disaggregated, because there is no-one between those very small population centres in the Kimberley and those slightly larger population centres in the Pilbara. There's no-one in between them, so, when you say 'disaggregated', it's not a proper reflection of what's actually happening in a state like Western Australia. In the south of the state, where population densities are greater, distances between Albany, Bunbury and Busselton, for example, are closer. I've listened closely to what everyone has said over a number of months now. I just can't understand why you would seek to disrupt arrangements that are working well. Do you concede that the current arrangements in the Kimberley are working well? Mr Kiley : From the information— Senator DEAN SMITH: There are challenges. If they're not, from your perspective, please let us know. Mr Kiley : From what I'm aware of, yes, but, again, we want to make sure that they work as effectively as possible. Ms Maier : I would just add to Mr Kiley's point. DAMAs have been in place for a period of time, and there's an opportunity to look at that framework in terms of what it needs to provide across an entire jurisdiction. As I mentioned earlier, it's our expectation that jurisdictions engage very closely with all of their local government areas and the existing regional designated area migration agreements. The benefit of having a state or territory jurisdiction put forward a business case for their entire jurisdiction is that they also have the levers that can attract skilled migrants. They have an understanding of upcoming infrastructure projects, housing and education. So there's that added benefit of having a state or territory government have oversight of the agreements. Senator DEAN SMITH: So who is responsible? In that evidence, I heard you saying that it's the states and territories that are responsible for managing this process and establishing the statewide DAMA. So what is your role? Ms Maier : We work with the jurisdiction in terms of establishing the concessions under that agreement and have a look at the evidence they've provided in their business case to the department. What are the localised occupations that are in shortage? We look at their business case in terms of the sorts of concessions that they might need. Senator DEAN SMITH: How many DAMAs are there currently in Western Australia? Ms Maier : There are, I believe, three. Let me just check. Mr Kiley : It's four. Ms Maier : Sorry. Mr Kiley : Pilbara, Kimberley, South West and Goldfields. Senator DEAN SMITH: Yes, that's right. The only justification I can imagine is that someone might think there's an administrative burden in having to deal with four DAMAs in Western Australia and that there might be an administrative efficiency in only having to deal with one. Is that the justification? Ms Maier : No, that's not the— Senator DEAN SMITH: Great. That's reassuring, because the concerns that people raise in the far north of the state—in Kununurra, in the Kimberley, for example—are that various opportunities that they have during the DAMA might be traded off with other regions in Western Australia. Is that a legitimate concern? Is that a possibility? Mr Kiley : We don't see the negotiations around the DAMAs as a trading off. What we are genuinely working with the jurisdictions to do is understand their skills needs— Senator DEAN SMITH: But, Mr Kiley, you're not. You said that the state is doing it. Mr Kiley : Sorry—working with the states to understand their skills needs. Senator DEAN SMITH: But this demonstrates a really, really important point and why we have a parliamentary joint committee on northern Australia. Canberra is very far away from Perth, which is very, very far away from Kununurra. And I can't help but think that, when the message gets sent from Kununurra to Perth, it gets a little bit diluted; it gets a bit misunderstood. Then, when the message goes from Perth to Canberra, it gets more misunderstood. And then I'm sitting here with Senator Sterle and others who've been to Kununurra, who go there regularly—the Kimberley, the Goldfields—and hear firsthand from people. And now we sit in our comfortable committee room in Canberra, and all I'm hearing is—I'm not convinced you understand the frustrations and the anxieties that are being felt in a very, very small town like Kununurra. Mr Kiley : We've heard the concerns. They've been worked through in the discussions with WA, and, as I said at the start, this process has been instructive—to hear the evidence that this committee has received. We will absolutely take that on— Senator DEAN SMITH: No, no, Mr Kiley, we heard the evidence a while ago. We didn't hear the evidence yesterday; we heard the evidence a while ago. Mr Kiley : And we will use that to inform our continued discussions with Western Australia. Senator DEAN SMITH: So what is the timeline? Ms Maier : I think jurisdictions are at different stages of— Senator DEAN SMITH: What stage is Western Australia at? Ms Maier : We've been engaged with the Western Australian government in terms of looking at their business case and also in discussion around the regional DAMAs and making sure that, when those DAMAs are close to expiry, we're looking at whether or not there needs to be a transitional, ongoing period of time where those regional DAMAs operate to make sure that there are the agreements in place in the interim as those discussions continue with the Western Australian government. Senator DEAN SMITH: When does the Pilbara DAMA expire? Ms Leo : 27 March 2027. Senator DEAN SMITH: And when does the Kimberley DAMA expire? Ms Leo : 27 March 2027. Senator DEAN SMITH: And when does the South West DAMA expire? Ms Leo : I'm sorry; I don't have that detail. Mr Kiley : I'll have to come back to you on that, Senator. Senator DEAN SMITH: And when does the— CHAIR: Senator Smith, can you just—maybe we take that as you're agreeing to take that question on notice and provide that back to Senator Smith. Senator DEAN SMITH: So there is the possibility for extensions of the existing DAMA if states are not in a position to fulfil or conclude their statewide DAMA? Ms Maier : Correct. Mr Kiley : And we have already done that for some of the regional DAMAs to ensure that they continue. Senator DEAN SMITH: This is the point that I'm trying to make. These people are running their businesses. Every new frustration, every new anxiety adds to what is already a very challenging existence. Running a business in a place like Kununurra, in a place like Broome—it's very, very seasonal, not to mention all of the other challenges that might be happening in a town like Kununurra, which I'm sure you're aware of. Whenever people are trying to get on with their life, this just adds frustration, confusion. How can someone make business investments in an already challenging environment, like northern Australia, when they've got this degree of doubt hanging over them? And what I hear is you're not actually taking much responsibility for this at all. You're pushing it down on the state government. And I'm still not convinced that there's a clear rationale for going to a statewide DAMA. Mr Kiley : I think there's a collective responsibility where— Senator DEAN SMITH: No, no, I'm not going to accept responsibility for your mistakes—no, I'm not—nor am I going to accept responsibility for your poor consultation. Mr Kiley : The collective responsibility that we are working through with these DAMAs—ultimately, the Commonwealth signs off on the final terms of the DAMA, so, ultimately, the Commonwealth is responsible for signing off on the final concessions that are provided. We do so, as Ms Maier was saying, based on: the extensive engagement we have with WA; the business case that they put forward; the range of skill shortages they have in different parts of their jurisdiction—and this is the work we do across all jurisdictions; and the types of concessions that may be needed to support attracting migrants to the workforce, whether that be age or additional occupations that aren't otherwise available. That has included looking at the existing regional DAMAs, the concessions that are already available, whether they continue to be necessary to attract migrants to those parts of the jurisdiction, and whether they need to be included in the new statewide DAMA. Senator DEAN SMITH: On the website it says 'with states, territories or regional authorities'. What does 'regional authorities' mean? Mr Kiley : The regional authority, in the context of regional DAMAs, is the authority that we engage with in the administration of the DAMA. Senator DEAN SMITH: Is it possible at this stage to go over the state process and establish or extend permanently the Pilbara and Kimberley DAMAs? Mr Kiley : That's not the intention. The intent is to move to a statewide DAMA. Senator DEAN SMITH: By when? Mr Kiley : We're looking to work through those negotiations in the coming months, but we want to make sure that, in settling a DAMA, we have confidence that it will do what it is intended to do in supporting the migration and skills needs of the jurisdiction in its entirety, including how we manage the transition where there are regional DAMAs in the jurisdiction— Senator DEAN SMITH: When do you expect the Western Australia statewide DAMA to be completed or enacted? Mr Kiley : I don't have a date at the moment. Ultimately, it's a matter for government. I can take on notice whether we can provide you a time. CHAIR: Mr Kiley, you can take that on notice. Senator DEAN SMITH: Mr Kiley, have you or anyone in your branch spoken to people in Kununurra? Mr Kiley : I'd have to take it on notice. Ms Maier : We have a business industry regional outreach network that engages across Australia. We'll take that on notice. Senator DEAN SMITH: 'In Kununurra' was my question. CHAIR: Mr Kiley, during our remote hearings the committee has heard evidence about businesses and stakeholders concerned that the DAMA negotiations will disadvantage certain regions which are more remote. You've heard from the Kimberley on that issue. We took evidence in Brisbane and North Queensland and also in the Northern Territory. You don't have to answer that question today, but if we can get the information in terms of where the negotiations are at for the Northern Territory, what DAMA agreements are in place with the Northern Territory government and at what stage are those agreements at. There have been regional agreements in place, but you're saying that you'll go to one agreement, and I know the Northern Territory has progressed well. Where is the DAMA agreement with the Northern Territory at, at this stage? You can either answer it now or provide further information on notice. Mr Kiley : I'm happy to answer now. There is a jurisdiction-wide DAMA in place in the Northern Territory. It's in effect until 30 June 2030. CHAIR: How long has that been in operation? Ms Leo : The current DAMA has been in effect since 19 March 2025. This is the third DAMA in effect with the Northern Territory. CHAIR: I've got a couple of questions for Border Force. This is from the deputy chair. Rear Admiral Sonter or Mr Copeman, what could a Border Force solution look like in the north-west to support international flights in and out of Western Australia—for example, Karratha and Broome? Could Border Force have a pool of staff based in the north to support ports and airports? If not, why not? Mr Copeman : We have framework in place—it's called a new and emerging ports framework—and we work closely with industry when they identify the business need to be able to have a certain location gazetted under the Customs Act to be able to operate internationally there. We have a number of already gazetted locations in the north-west, but we're always happy to be able to work with industry and what that looks like. We have a permanent presence of offices across the north-west—from Dampier, Port Hedland and Broome in particular—and we're working with industry at the moment on a facility in Wyndham to be able to facilitate some legitimate trade and travel out of those ports. We recognise that we also take an intelligence-led and risk-based approach. As threats are identified and risks become apparent, we surge workforce not only from other regional areas but also from some of our more metropolitan based operations. That could include a surge team from Perth, or calling upon our headquarters team to be able to surge into some of those regional locations. CHAIR: In terms of Operation Sovereign Borders, how many staff were placed or came on as part of that operation when the government made that announcement, and where are they based? Rear Adm. Sonter : Generally, there's an element in the headquarters in Canberra that coordinates across what we call forward commands. The way it works is we liaise into the Australian Border Force network to utilise people in those regions that Mr Copeman just described, as well as from the Australian Defence Force and the Australian Border Force—people in the air and at sea. An average number on a daily basis working in Operation Sovereign Borders would be around 1,200-1,400 people. You asked where they were based: we leverage the Broome office and we leverage the Darwin office. Darwin is generally where our patrol boats work out of—as you have probably seen, Chair. We have aviation elements that work out of the north-west and the north, all the way across to Cairns in the east. We've also got on-water assets that operate out of Thursday Island and Cairns. We're broadly spread across the northern regions in total. CHAIR: In your opening statement you talked about an increase in illegal activity coming in through the north. I think you said in 2022 there were seven, in 2025-26 there were 11, and in 2026 there were 11. In terms of that activity coming in across Northern Australia—and I know there have been some of those illegal activities or boats coming into the Northern Territory and community in particular—how much work has the department done through Operation Sovereign Borders with land councils, organisations on the ground in terms of land and sea rangers, and that capability? If the department doesn't have people from Border Force on the ground, what work or contracting has the department done with those organisations that are the eyes and ears on the coast? Has the department put in place any contracted work to be able to add to the capacity to stop that? Rear Adm. Sonter : I will start and then I will get James Copeman to dive in as well because he has done a lot of work in this area. In essence, there has been a significant amount of work. I've been on record as saying, and I'll repeat again on record, that members of the public, our Indigenous, are critical for that oversight surveillance that we need across the north. Not unlike counterterrorism and other critical threats that we face, they are essential. Personally, I've travelled up into the north-west, into the north and into the Torres as well. We are looking at how we evolve that relationship even more with all those land councils and members. Mr Copeman might talk about that in more detail. We leverage an existing process that we've had in place called Border Watch—that is, essentially, where anyone in the community can ring up and report something that's out of the ordinary because, as I've said before, it is their country. They understand when something is unusual on their country and they report, and that's been quite successful. Now we're even starting to take some of those Indigenous rangers out to sea because, again, they know sea country, and that whole collaboration is just making it a better collective effect moving forward. But I might refer to Mr Copeman. He will probably have a bit more to add there. Mr Copeman : Reiterating exactly what Rear Admiral touched on, we have had engagements across the north-west, Western Australia, the Northern Territory and Far North Queensland with ranger groups associated with councils also ranger groups that are independent of those councils, to come together, co-design and look to move forward with some arrangements. We fully recognise that a lot of the community who live in remote areas are our eyes and ears on the Ground and it has been fantastic over the last 12 months to see some of those ranger groups, as the Rear Admiral touched on, be part of some of our patrols. That is not just limited to what the Rear Admiral has touched on as far as maritime patrols, but we've also done some remote area patrols utilising our four-wheel drives and also some of their equipment. We have also, in some of our more remote locations, had the opportunity to be able to partner with some Indigenous range groups to do some aerial patrols on our rotary wing assets as well. Rear Adm. Sonter : One of the beauties about this job is I get to command both Australian Border Force and Australian Defence Force. In the Australian Defence Force realm, I have a very close relationship with and we work a lot with Northern Force, which you'd be aware of. All of them are Indigenous people, and the beauty about that is not only their reporting and their knowledge when they're actually working for me but also when they're not working for me. Because they have that familiarity, we quite often get a lot of reports from them when they're back in their community after they've done their Army service, so that's a really strong network moving forward. CHAIR: Going away from the Northern Territory to a far corner of my electorate, the Indian Ocean territories have become a strategic outpost for the Commonwealth. Rear Admiral, you could take this on notice if you like. What work is being done with the Indian Ocean Territories, both Cocos and Christmas Island, which did have a detention that has now been decommissioned? How many incursions though are coming through on the Indian Ocean Territories? Rear Adm. Sonter : In this forum, I'd be reluctant to talk about specificity because, what we find in public open areas like this is people smugglers use that for their benefit and they put both our people and vulnerable people at risk. But you're very correct. I mean, the Indian Ocean Territories have always been under threat, continue to be under threat; hence, in terms of my maritime force, we always have presence there. But we also do overflight as well. In fact, in the broad, we're about to get some new aviation capability that will help us reach out as far as that more frequently because, as you know, and this probably gets back to some of the commentary, we talk about how far away from Canberra some of those important regional countries we've named are. This is even further, so the challenge is getting out there but we are out there frequently and there are ABF members that frequent both those islands as well on land. I might just refer to Mr Copeman, if he's got anything more to add. Mr Copeman : You touched on immigration detention. I just want to expand on that. We do have a footprint of officers. There would be a mixture of officers that are posted to Christmas Island, as well as locally engaged officers that we work with there. We deliver aviation airport services as well as some cargo and international mail services up there not only to make sure that we can facilitate legitimate travel and trade to the Indian Ocean Territories but also protect the community from anything nefarious coming in. On Cocos Island, we do not have any officers permanently based there but we do surge if and when we need to, to be able to facilitate. CHAIR: Yes, every time I've visited, the presence of Border Force is always there and it's good. Rear Admiral, are there any moves to do like you've done in the Northern Territory, where you've worked with Aboriginal communities and trained local Aboriginal people? With the population of Cocos Malay people, there are many on Christmas Island who have lived on the sea all their life. Are there any approaches for Border Force to work with people in that community? Rear Adm. Sonter : As Mr Copeman said, we've been there for quite a while, so we find that we actually have a very good relationship with the community already. But we do not at this time have a plan to do a more deliberate co-design, as Mr Copeman described, for the areas we're doing from north-west, north and across to the north-east of mainland Australia. CHAIR: I will go to Home Affairs, if I could. On Christmas Island, there are a number of houses which were occupied by staff when the immigration detention centre was in full operation that are no longer being used. What's the plan from Department of Home Affairs for that infrastructure? Mr Kiley : We probably don't have the right people available at the hearing to answer that, so I might need to take that on notice and come back to you with details. CHAIR: What work from either your departments is being done to ensure our northern maritime approaches are kept safe? We've heard that response from Border Force. What work is Home Affairs doing across northern Australia besides DAMA? For the maritime approaches in Western Australia, Northern Territory and also Queensland, where have you got your staff? Have you got staff in and across northern Australia or are they all Canberra based? Mr Kiley : Border Force might want to jump in as well. We've got staff all around the country. We operate out of all of the capital cities, immigration staff in particular. Again, if it would assist the committee, we're happy to take on notice and provide a bit of a breakdown of where we have both Home Affairs staff as well as Border Force staff across northern Australia. Senator DEAN SMITH: I think the member for Durack, Melissa Price, might have asked questions on this theme. In May, there was an announcement that Karratha Airport had been granted—I think it's called—restricted use international airport and alternative international airport status. Is that correct? Mr Copeman : I would have to take on notice the exact date, but that is my understanding, yes. Senator DEAN SMITH: So what does that actually mean from Border Force's perspective? Mr Copeman : It would allow for international flights to occur. However, it would be not on what I would call an RPT or a repeat status. It would be ad hoc international movements subject to industry saying, 'We would like to have an arrival here at this time to be able to move these people and freight.' Senator DEAN SMITH: Again, travelling to Karratha, a lot of local people, particularly in the city of Karratha, talk about how improved international connectivity is good for tourism, workforce development and, importantly, freight. How do you enliven that regulatory approval that's been given? What happens next in order to allow for these ad hoc international movements? When you say 'ad hoc', does that mean you could have regular international flight movements out of Karratha into South-East Asia? Is that what ad hoc means? Mr Copeman : That's correct. I'm unaware at the moment of an industry push or an airline to have a repeated and consistent service up there. The nature of Karratha Airport would fall within that new and emerging ports framework. That's where industry would come to us within that framework. We would then work closely with the department of agriculture as well as the department of infrastructure to progress requirements that we would place on industry to build a facility where we're able to facilitate or mitigate some of those risks. That is a co-design type of approach. My observation would be that Karratha is very different to Dampier and Darwin. That's why we take that the approach of saying: 'What does it look like here? What is the environment? What's the footprint that we can build within? What are the core requirements that we need to acquit our customs and immigration functions at the border?' And then build out from there. Certainly that involves a co-design with industry. Senator DEAN SMITH: When you say 'build', you're not talking about physically build, because Karratha is a quite a substantial airport. By comparison to other regional airports, it's a substantial and modern facility. What is the next step? Does an airline come to Border Force? What's the point of entry for an airline into government, broadly? Mr Copeman : It would be the airport operator themselves engaging with us. Senator DEAN SMITH: Has the airport operator engaged with you about the possibility of ad hoc international movements? Mr Copeman : I would have to take on notice the engagement there. Senator DEAN SMITH: Does Border Force have a formula? If you have a 737 aircraft coming into a port like Karratha internationally, is there a formula that says you need so many ABF officers and screening devices? Is there a template which you use to start, even if you don't end up there? Mr Copeman : We do have an internal template that we work with to try and figure that out. My observation—and it really does feed in to some of the conversation we've had today—is that the template could work well in metropolitan based areas where we may be voluminous with staff. We could have an officer that is trained in just working at the airport to clear passengers or conduct baggage exams. Having done some of these processes myself in regional areas, the further out from the centre you go, the more training you require to acquit a range of different tasks. For our officers based in Dampier, clearing an international aircraft movement is one element of their job, as is clearing a merchant vessel and intervening where they need to. It's absolutely wonderful that our officers have the opportunity to do such a broad range of activities. But it's probably where that particular metric or widget that we use is skewed a little bit where we would need to take a really practical approach to what that looks like. Senator DEAN SMITH: I'm hearing that it's an efficient use of resources if officers can do a variety of different things in a location. Mr Copeman : That is absolutely correct, yes. Senator DEAN SMITH: How long would it take? How long does it typically take to move from having been granted restricted use as an international airport, or an alternate international airport classification, to accepting international flights? I'm not thinking A380s; I'm thinking 737s coming down from South-East Asia and an airline demonstrating that there's a commercial appetite et cetera. Mr Copeman : Senator, I'm very hesitant to provide you a response that goes along the lines of 'it depends', but, to try and touch on some of the fit-out things that I spoke about before, we'd take a risk based approach to what that proposal would look like. We might need to put in things like additional CCTV or, depending on the volume of passengers coming through, we might need to upgrade some servers to the local system. Depending on the volumes that come through, that could be a little bit more extreme than what you're looking like. But do we need to explore what smart gates look like or automation in general, as opposed to a manual clearance based process? There is a balance of resource capability and return on investment for government that we can deliver in there. Senator DEAN SMITH: Let's say an airline operator does come to ABF, it is genuinely interested and there's a commercial case. Does that airline operator come to you, and then you formulate a working group to enliven that airline operator's application, or does the airline operator have to sort of truck him or herself around government and knock on the ABF door, knock on the DAFF door, knock on this door and knock on that door? How does government, or the ABF, facilitate those discussions and, hopefully, the realisation of an international travel opportunity—in this case, out of Karratha? Mr Copeman : I can confirm that we have a central point where it will cut across those three main agencies—the Australian Border Force, the department of agriculture and the department of infrastructure. We may have different requirements, but the hope and endeavour is that there is one entry point in to provide that advice saying, 'These are the requirements,' albeit they'd be different from location to location. Senator DEAN SMITH: And what is that central point? Mr Copeman : We have a ports policy team within the Australian Border Force that does some of the coordination there. Additionally, at an operational level, we have regular catch-ups across those agencies and industry partners to work on what emerging airlines are coming out. We do that on a fairly regular basis. Senator DEAN SMITH: When was the last time ABF facilitated regular international aviation arrival and departure from a northern Australian airport? Mr Copeman : Darwin, for example? Senator DEAN SMITH: New—let me put it differently. In the last three years or in the last five years, how many airports in northern Australia have been enlivened, through the work of ABF and others, to allow for regular international passenger or freight flights? Mr Copeman : Broome International Airport and some of the work that we've done with Broome over the last wee while is the first thing that comes to mind for me. Again, it is a balance with industry to make sure that those operations are viable and continuing. If we had industry that came to the organisation and said, 'We would like to run four times a week with inwards and outwards movements from location X,' we would put forward our requirements. Sometimes we are a little bit hesitant with what that looks like in viability, because I wouldn't want to go to government and say, 'We need to be able to resource this for X, Y and Z,' and then send five, six or 10 officers up to Broome to deliver operations up there and then industry pulls out after six months. What can I do with those officers, how do I redeploy them, and how can we get best bang for our buck with delivery? Senator DEAN SMITH: That's a very fair, a very reasonable, point. So how would you satisfy yourself around the viability of the proposition that's being put to you? Do you do that, or does someone else do that? Does the department of transport do that? Someone obviously has to put their eye over the business case and make a judgement call that it is believable and sustainable. Mr Copeman : We do assessments on their volumes and some of their strategic plans that they put in place. It probably sits better with the department of infrastructure, with what they do in those assessments. I would say that we simply turn our minds to the operations around what we need to put in place to be able to deliver against that. Senator DEAN SMITH: Excellent. I appreciate that. That's been very enlightening. Thank you. CHAIR: I want to thank both Home Affairs and the Australian Border Force for their appearance at the committee today. Before you go, Rear Admiral, I want to share my appreciation for the work the Border Force does and continues to do, particularly for the coastline of the Northern Territory but also across the Indian Ocean. Home Affairs, thank you very much for coming. I know, Mr Kiley, there were a number of questions taken on notice. The committee has agreed that any responses to any questions on notice should be provided within two weeks of you receiving a copy of the Hansard transcript. We do thank you very much for appearing today. Senator STERLE: Keep those visas coming. We need workers..