COOMBES, Ms Karina, Munupi Clan Group Trustee, Tiwi Land Council DE SANTIS, Ms Lynette, Mayor, Tiwi Islands Regional Council DORN, Mrs Heidi, Chief Executive Officer, Tiwi Islands Regional Council KELLY, Ms Yvonne, Business Manager, Tiwi Resources MUNKARA, Mrs Alice, Chairperson, Tiwi Resources PUAUTJIMI, Mrs Jane, Director, Tiwi Resources TOY, Mr Brenton, Interim Chief Executive Officer, Tiwi Land Council [11:30] CHAIR: Welcome. I understand that information on parliamentary privilege and the protection of witnesses giving evidence to the committee has been provided to you. I now invite you to make a short opening statement, and at the conclusion of any remarks we'll move to questions. Ms Coombes: Good morning, Chair and committee members. On behalf of the Tiwi Land Council and the Tiwi people, we are very happy you have come to visit us today on the Tiwi Islands. In our submission to the inquiry we explained that, as Tiwi people, our culture and country are our greatest strength. We hope you can see this today. Our submission covered a lot of opportunities and challenges that we see for the different industries the committee is interested in exploring. I want to briefly shed a light on some of the things that weren't highlighted in the terms of reference. Firstly, there are opportunities. There's the really important role of small businesses. Three great examples are Pinyama Nursery, Mamanta and Jipungwayi, which is happening over at Milikapiti. These are all 100 per cent Tiwi Islands and culturally driven small businesses that are creating economic opportunities for their owners and social impact for Tiwi people. Secondly, there are economic opportunities that could be created by investing in homelands. This year the Tiwi Land Council is doing a project to understand the aspirations of Tiwi people for their homelands. One of the greatest things from the consultation so far is that Tiwi people have ideas for businesses and jobs on country, and some Tiwi people are already turning these ideas into reality, as Mamanta are doing at the moment. For example, at Mamanta, Shane Tipuamantamerri and Tammy Abala welcome visitors to their homeland of Pitjiramirra, which is on Munupi country, for cross-cultural learning expert. As we mentioned earlier, they currently have the Turtle Dreaming Camp for the schoolkids. You also have Yimpinari clan group about to start works this dry season on the healing centre at Jessie River. We've also got the Mapurlarri Prawn Farm project moving from research to the development phase towards a pilot demonstration. The farm is at the Wurankuwu homeland. These businesses enable Tiwi people to spend time on country while generating income and enabling intergenerational and cross-cultural knowledge transfer. We urge the Australian and NT governments to properly fund basic infrastructure on homelands. This will support co-investment by traditional owners so that homelands can be both cultural and economic hubs. I want to mention the biggest barriers to economic participation on Tiwi Islands, which I'm sure you will hear repeated many times today and perhaps elsewhere in your travels. This is the importance of connecting infrastructure—our roads and our ferry. We have described the issue in our submission and shared some photos with the committee. Without good roads and sea connections between our islands, it is much harder to share job opportunities equally between our communities. For example, if someone from Milikapiti wants to work at forestry, they need to leave very early in the morning, especially when the roads are very bad in the wet season. Recently, forestry has started offering workers stays at Yapalika, which is very helpful. As we said in our submission, the routes impact all access to Tiwi life and economic opportunities, connecting Tiwi communities, access to education—particularly Tiwi College—access to our homelands and more. In the short term, we desperately need more funding for Tiwi Islands Regional Council to maintain our roads. In the longer term, we want to see the whole of the islands' road network sealed. We also need funding to fix the power of the ferry landing and to get a backup ferry. The second biggest infrastructure challenge is waste management. In our submission, we spoke about the impact on the government's housing program, but it's also impacting tourism. For example, we want to demolish the Clearwater camp in Pirlangimpi so we can build a new tourist facility, but we don't have the space in the current landfill. We need investment to better manage waste and support environmental and community health, including a transfer station so we can sort the waste and get most of it off the island rather than expanding landfill. I'm pretty sure the regional council will cover more on that. I'll now hand over to Brenton. Mr Toy : Thank you to the Munupi trustee for her comprehensive opening statement, with a lot of stuff in there that speaks to our submission. I've got a statement here that I'll read through, but, as a general comment, it's so good to have regional council, Tiwi Resources and the land council all at the same table together. We're talking about emerging industries. I think that, for things to really work in the future, we need these organisations to be working together, and the last few weeks has been a great experience for me. I can't thank the other organisations enough for that collaborative effort. That was just a general comment. Thank you, Karina, Munupi trustee, for that comprehensive statement. I won't go too much into it. A key message for the committee today is that Tiwi people have vision, determination and our aspirations. It's our old people and their vision for forestry—and we'll, hopefully, hear about that later, but it was great hearing Gibson Farmer talk about the history of that—and the creation of TITEB, which we'll hear from as well. It's about our plans for aquaculture, such as the prawn farm—our small businesses that Tiwi Resources and Tiwi Enterprises are supporting on the islands. We're working to bring these dreams to reality and really get the realisation of this. For a long time, Tiwi people have been promised many things and they have been underdelivered. As the trustee said, our culture is our greatest strength, and Tiwi people continue to look for economic opportunities that align with our values and caring for people and country. As we can see from existing consulting and tourism businesses, there is economic opportunity in sharing our culture. I will also take a moment to acknowledge the achievements of the Tiwi people—we've spoken about it already—who are about to complete their final block of the IBA and Aboriginal Tourism & Events NT accelerator program: Munupi Trustee Karina Coombes, Justina Puruntatameri, Mary Dunn from Yimpinari and Norman Tipiloura from Wulirankuwu. They follow last year's Tiwi cohort of Dennis Dunn and Rex Punguatji. All of these individuals are representing their own clan groups or corporations and have aspirations for new business on country. We are pleased that all of our clan groups have now established, or are in the process or final stages of establishing, their own corporations to give them their own economic independence. With the right back-of-house support—we've heard that mentioned in the evidence before—and strong governance, our corporations are the engines for economic opportunity led by Tiwi people. Finally, on behalf of the Tiwi Land Council, I'd like to thank all of the organisations who are speaking with the committee today. We're all working hard for not a good but a great future for Tiwi people. And as I said at the beginning, we are stronger together. Probably my last comment is to thank you for taking the time to come up to Tiwi. I remember in the hearing that we said we'd love to invite you up, and to see that realised—we appreciate it. Thank you. CHAIR: Thank you, Brenton. I now invite either Yvonne Kelly or Alice, as chair, to say a few words. Mrs Munkara : Good morning everyone. Tiwi Resources is owned by the eight owning groups, and the board is made up of one director from each of the eight groups. Our major projects include managing the Tiwi Ranger program. This project is centrally funded through NIAA. We currently employ 15 rangers, four of whom are female. This also includes the Junior Ranger program, which works with students from both Tiwi College and Xavier Catholic College. We have secured funding to build a ranger base at Ranku on Bathurst Island. We will then be employing up to four extra rangers to be based there. The rangers work hard to manage our beautiful island, including biosecurity, marine and coastal management, fire weeds, feral animal management and managing the IPA. The Tiwi Fire and Carbon Project is also managed by the rangers. It started with grant funding support from the ILSE but is now 100 per cent Tiwi owned and managed. The carbon credits generated are used to support the ranger program in the first instance and then to support community projects as funds allow. The Mapurlarri Prawn Farm is a joint project with the rangers, Wurankuwu clan group and CSIRO. We are now seeking funding for the capital infrastructure needed to establish the farm at Ranku. The project will provide jobs and commercial opportunities for Tiwi people. The challenges we are facing developing and expanding these projects include the condition of the roads, which makes it difficult for our rangers to carry out their work. Staff housing is in short supply, and accessing funding to build new housing is difficult. Waste management is becoming more difficult and costly. We now have just one barge company serving the islands, resulting in increased costs and poorer standards of service. Despite these changes, we are very positive about the current projects and the opportunity for us to build on these, creating jobs and economic opportunities for Tiwi. Thank you for the opportunity to speak here today. CHAIR: Thanks, Alice. I'll now invite Heidi Dorn to speak. Mrs Dorn : Pupuni japinari. Good morning, Chair and committee. The Tiwi Islands are rich in culture, knowledge and opportunity. Tiwi people have a strong connection to country and generations of knowledge to share. We want to see more Tiwi families out on country, developing sustainable businesses on their homelands and creating opportunities that are owned and led by Tiwi people for generations to come. Council supports economic development and wants to play a key active role in enabling growth across the Tiwi Islands. We're committed to working together with all stakeholders, as Brenton said earlier, to create sustainable opportunities for our communities. One of our biggest barriers to growth, investment and job creation on the Tiwi Islands is infrastructure, particularly roads. While there is interest in developing industry and attracting investment, access remains the major constraint. Reliable roads are essential for moving people, equipment, goods, accessing ports and supporting operations. To support investment and economic growth all-weather access is essential. We're not talking about bush tracks; we're talking about key routes connecting our communities and our ports to these assets. This is not just about future development. Even today some of our critical infrastructure is located on roads that are not accessible all year round. Our largest community can be cut off from essential assets, including the waste facility, the communication tower, water bores and water storage tanks. If we cannot access and maintain infrastructure that supports our community today, it becomes difficult to talk about sustainable growth tomorrow. The Tiwi Islands already have significant opportunities in tourism, forestry, ports and other industries; however, without reliable access, it becomes harder to attract investment, create jobs and reduce the cost of doing business. Roads are not simply a transport issue; they are enabling infrastructure that underpins economic participation and long-term growth. Council is keen to support projects that create lasting benefits for Tiwi people. However, funding these programs must recognise not only the cost of construction but the ongoing maintenance required to keep this infrastructure operating and delivering benefits into the future. The opportunity exists today. The Tiwi Islands have the people, the culture and the potential. What we need is the infrastructure investment to unlock that potential and create sustainable economic opportunities for future generations. Thank you. CHAIR: I now invite questions from members of the committee. Senator Allman-Payne. Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: I might go to the council first, noting that one of these recommendations was in the Tiwi Land Council's submission but it pertains to your organisation, and that is local government funding and the suitability of the amount that councils get. If you could, expand on why there is a need for increased local government funding and maybe speak to the areas in particular where you fall short and the impact that has on this community. Mrs Dorn : Sure. The funding for roads for maintaining waste management falls significantly short because of our location. Transport costs have gone up; barge costs have gone up by 51 per cent, obviously with the increase of fuel at the moment. And there is a limited number of contractors on the island. Everything has to be barged in. Our costs of mob/demob nearly take up our entire funding before we actually get anything delivered to island. To get significant plans to develop roads and to provide any kind of maintenance, it's nearly taken up by the time we get the crews here. We need to invest in Tiwi people. We need to build their skills up so we can be eventually sufficient. We need to invest in machinery so we can be sufficient on these islands so that we don't have to bring everything from mainland. That, in itself, is creating more jobs. It's creating onus on your own land and giving those people the responsibility to take control and look after the land. If we're competing with Darwin and with mainland pricing and things like that, the index that we get for our roads per kilometre is nowhere near what some of those main communities on mainland get. The cost for us is significantly higher, but the index that we get per kilometre is significantly less. It's about one-sixth of what a mainland council get per kilometre. Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: Can I just ask—excuse my ignorance—who sets that index? Is that state or federal government? Mrs Dorn : It's state. That is something I know is being looked at. We don't want to take away from what mainland get, but we want to make sure that it is sufficient for Tiwi people—and not only Tiwi; there are obviously other communities that are in the same position as us. We don't have assets on island. We don't have civil contractors to make it competitive for us to do business. The pool that we have to pick from can nearly charge what they like, because there is no-one else competitive out here. So it would be great to invest in some Tiwi businesses or back into local government so we can be sustainable ourselves—maybe not funding for the government, but funding for these other local businesses so we can lean on them when we need to do these works. CHAIR: Are you going down to the Australian local government meeting? Mrs Dorn : Yes. CHAIR: Vic Daly, Roper Gulf—I think one of the things that need to constantly be pushed is that your FAGs money should be done not on population but on need. I think local government councils in the Northern Territory need to start banding together to start putting that—because I know West Arnhem and Roper Gulf all have the same issue. Luke. Mr GOSLING: You're on the board of LGANT? Mrs Dorn : Yes, we are. That is something that is being discussed at the moment. It's not to take away from those other councils; it's just for that index to be fair on location costs. With barge increases of 51 per cent at the moment, even our federal R2R money wouldn't even get us one kilometre, and that's over five years. CHAIR: But that's because the formula is based on population rather than need. Mrs Dorn : Correct. CHAIR: We keep telling LGANT they need to look at a way in which they can change— Mrs Dorn : Yes, change the actual— Mr GOSLING: We've significantly increased Roads to Recovery funding. CHAIR: We have. We have given more money for Roads for Recovery, but it still doesn't cover— Mr GOSLING: I understand. CHAIR: the need that remote councils get. Darwin City Council—the formulas for the municipals are completely different to when you look at these councils. Mr GOSLING: So you haven't got your own graders or sealers or asphalt? Mrs Dorn : Yes, we've got limited machinery. Machinery is purchased out of our untied funds, which is what we were talking about with the FAGs and our untied funds. Not only has that money got to be split per kilometre to maintain the roads; it's got to be reinvested in that machinery as well. Either it's got to be subcontracted out, which is a huge cost, or we have to purchase our own machines, which is also a huge cost. To be sustainable and purchase our own machines is the plan moving forward. We've just got to build that up to get there but also maintain the roads while we're going. Mr GOSLING: So you have some plant, but you'd like to get more plant so you can be more self-sustaining. Do you have Tiwi Islanders that are qualified on the machinery, or is that where you need a bit of vocational education and training? Does CDU have a presence over here to do those? Mrs Dorn : We do. We've got a number of providers—there's TITEB, which I'm sure you'll hear from shortly, and CDU as well—that we can lean on. We have limited skills, but we would love to increase those because that will create sustainability within the council and within Tiwi people so that they have those skills and don't have to keep relying on the mainland for them. Mr GOSLING: Does the regional council have any tourism assets? Mrs Dorn : No assets, no. Mr GOSLING: So they're all run by the Aboriginal community organisations and— Mrs Dorn : Corporations. CHAIR: What assets? Mr GOSLING: Tourism. Mrs Dorn : All our roads lead to those assets, though. Everything that we struggle to maintain each year and that gets flooded during every wet season leads to— CHAIR: I have a road question for the council, but I'm waiting— Mr GOSLING: No, you go. CHAIR: Alright. What's your Tiwi workforce, Mayor? Ms De Santis : Our Tiwi workforce at the moment is pretty much the same as when you were there. CHAIR: Don't say when I was there! Ms De Santis : About 78 per cent of our workforce is Tiwi. Mrs Dorn : With 75 Tiwi workers, that would be 90 per cent Tiwi. CHAIR: Can we get copies of the breakdown of that? We're not just asking Tiwi Islands Regional Council this; we've asked all the councils for their breakdown of the percentage of Aboriginal workers versus non-Aboriginal workers and their skills and qualifications because one of the terms of reference is for attracting and retaining a skilled workforce. What is council doing, and what is the strategy of the council to attract and retain a skilled workforce? When we talk about the greater operations, including parks and gardens, and all the services of the council, is that workforce highly spread over those functions? What's the strategy in place for Tiwi Islands Regional Council to retain that workforce? Mrs Dorn : We've got about 90 per cent Tiwi in employment—that is our aim. For any roles that we don't have on island—it could be the trades roles that we bring in—the aim is to train and put a Tiwi with that tradesperson and pass those skills on so we can be sustainable. That is a hundred per cent the focus of the council. The direction we want to go is to pass those skills on so eventually it can be a full Tiwi led council with skills that are sustainable to do roads, do maintenance, run ferries, provide sports and rec services and all the things that the council delivers. We're reinvesting in training, whether it be on small engines, and we're looking at civil courses at the moment. They're all the things to get us to that point. Getting coxswains to run the ferry is something we've already invested in and started. It's definitely about building up those skills. CHAIR: That's great. Brenton, we've heard a lot of people raising the issue of roads and infrastructure. The roads leading out to all of these communities, the main roads on the islands—I've spoken to the land council previously about this—are in the category of private roads. That means that your road funding is in a different category than a road on the mainland because of public access. These roads are the only public access that our mob have. When will the land council start having conversations or discussions about changing the status of the road corridors on the Tiwi Islands? You can either take it on notice or answer me now. Mr Toy : I think it's something that we can take on straightaway. The challenge has probably been the lack of clarity around who's responsible for what and whether it's a private road or whether it's a public road. Quite often we get 'not this door—that door'. We talk to the Northern Territory minister, and the response is, 'No, the regional council responsible for that.' There are bits of responsibility shifting; we'll put it that way. I think the first bit is getting clarity around who is responsible for those things and then working out where the gaps are. Then, if it is a matter of us having to make an approach to have the status of those roads changed, that's what we'll do, and we can do that straightaway if that's what we know we need to do. CHAIR: Remote Aboriginal communities are discriminated against in terms of roads funding because governments continually say that the roads are private access roads and that they don't fund private access roads. If we want to look at access and economic development, I think there have got to be conversations across the island with all the clan groups and land councils in a prime position—you can do it here. West Arnhem Land were having those conversations, and others elsewhere are starting to have those conversations where those roads are becoming private access roads. We can talk about economic development, opportunities and access, but that's not going to happen unless land councils drive that process. Mr Toy : We can drive it. For us, that's the bit—I'm day 1 or 2 into the role—about getting clarity around who is responsible— CHAIR: It's only a small thing to you! Mr Toy : But it'd be about getting clarity around the responsibility of that. I think you've got OTL in here today. We've got a few layers and players in there, with OTL, the land council and the regional council. Our view on it is that the corridors between those townships that have got leases on them and are open to the public are, effectively, public roads. CHAIR: The town's public? Mr Toy : Yes. CHAIR: All the other roads are on land trust land. I'm looking at a former chair of the Tiwi Land Council sitting over there, and Uncle Gibo can tell you that all the roads outside of the townships are on land trust land, so it's land trust responsibility. Mr Toy : I guess that's the contradictory part. We were at Barunga last week with Minister Edgington, and he said, 'Regional councils are funded to do those roads.' CHAIR: Of course he'd say that; he's slippery—sorry, can we wipe that off the record! Mr Toy : There are other members that were down there that can—that was the advice that we were given. CHAIR: The Commonwealth government fund the Northern Territory government. There's funding that regional councils get, but regional councils are hamstrung in that their formulas are set because of the status of the road, and the status of the roads, particularly on Aboriginal land, is private. What Bendigo council, down south, might get versus what Tiwi Islands Regional Council might get—Bendigo is up here, and we're down here, but the need down here is greater. Land councils could change the thing on that by saying, 'Okay, that's have this.' Watch Australian government departments and others shudder once you start having the conversation, because it opens up a whole lot of different things. It's something that I have been pushing for a long time because that's the only way it's going to change. Mr Toy : It's something that we'll certainly discuss with our executives. CHAIR: I'd love to have a conversation with you, Brendan. We can take it off the record anytime! I'm joking. Luke? Mr GOSLING: We were talking about emerging industries in aquaculture. Who knows the most about the Ranku pilot demonstration prawn farm? Ms Kelly : That's probably me. Mr GOSLING: What can you tell me about that, Yvonne? Where is it at, and how repeatable is it around some other areas of the Tiwi Islands? Apart from roads, because we've covered that, what other enabling infrastructure or supports could help it become a bigger employer and a bigger generator of wealth for the communities? Ms Kelly : Yes, the Mapurlarri Prawn Farm project is very much in its infancy. We've been working with CSIRO over the last maybe three or four years, doing the research around the farming methodology that they want to use. At the very beginning, they did testing from around the islands, testing on each of the eight clan groups' country, and there were two areas that were deemed most suitable. One was at Ranku, which has been the chosen one, and another one was on Mantiyupwi country just out of Wurrumiyanga. But that doesn't mean there weren't other areas that were suitable across the island. The Ranku site has been chosen as a pilot farm. The idea is to test it and see and, if it's successful, then expand the farm across the islands, setting up other locations as well. CSIRO have been a great partner, and the research has been really strong. We're at the point now where we're looking for funding to pay for the next stage, which is really the capital infrastructure around setting up the trial farm at Ranku, which involves six ponds, but it also involves the infrastructure around the workers camp, the treatment facility and so forth. So what we're looking at is that, once that capital infrastructure is in place and the farm is built, that infrastructure can then be used for other commercial activities out there at Ranku. The workers camp, for example, becomes a motel and so forth. This probably links into Heidi's point about the road plant and machinery. We would need heavy equipment to build the farm and build the ponds. And then, once it's built, the equipment is there to work on roads or whatever it is across the island. So this is what we need now to build the infrastructure, but it's got a long-term use. Mr GOSLING: I've talked with people about that in the past as well there, and that future use, whether it be for tourism or some other purpose, is great. What sort of investment are you looking forward for to get the ponds and the associated pumps and treatment but also just enough camp facilities to get started? What's the go with utilities? Is there already town power to the site? Ms Kelly : There's town power for what will be the workshop area but not to the ponds itself. That's out of town, so that'll be infrastructure that's needed to be established. As a ballpark figure, we're looking for a lazy $20 million to set it up; I'm sure you've got that lick in your back pocket. Mr GOSLING: It's good to have an idea. Just to be clear, that's to establish the ponds? Ms Kelly : Yes, establish the ponds, the infrastructure behind it, the workers camp, the workshop shed that they will need to work out of and so forth. Mr GOSLING: Where does the stock come from? Is that from Vietnam or something? Ms Kelly : No, the stock will come from Darwin. Initially, it'll come from the east coast, but CSIRO are looking at setting up a hatchery in Darwin. That will be a much better solution in terms of less stress on the spat that gets taken across. CHAIR: So they've got the ponds and the sites. Ms Kelly : They're doing their research out at Berry Springs, and we've got the sites selected at Ranku. We're in the process of beginning clearing, but that's as far as we can go until we can get funding. Mr GOSLING: What's at Berry Springs? CHAIR: These ponds. We should invite him to come into my electorate and have a look! Mr GOSLING: There are ponds there? CHAIR: Yes. Mr GOSLING: The old barra farm, you mean? Ms Kelly : Yes, the Barramundi Adventures. Mr GOSLING: The Barramundi Adventures, yes—some of the ponds there. CHAIR: They've given CSIRO the bottom part, and they've got a couple of ponds where they're trialling these prawns. They're having great success, which will be easier in transportation and less stress on the animal. Ms Kelly : Yes. CSIRO have been working really closely with the Ranku TOs, and there are a crew of them who have been learning about the project on the way through. CHAIR: Yes, they came down to Canberra. Ms Kelly : We've had funding through Tiwi Land Council through the stimulus funding, which is supporting that project as well and supporting those guys working on the project. CHAIR: CSIRO is putting a lot of in-kind work with it. I'll give you the mud map. You can go down and see them. Mr GOSLING: Yes, I'd be interested. Ms Kelly : We'd be happy to table that. Mr GOSLING: Have the barramundi farm mob been out here as well—the Humpty Doo—to give you some advice on it, or is that a bit too big of a project? Ms Kelly : It's a different project, I think. I know that CSIRO are working specifically with Barramundi Adventures at that location. Mr GOSLING: Aquaculture, tourism and forestry seem to be good opportunities. Thanks. CHAIR: Senator Allman-Payne. Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: Just coming to Tiwi Resources, you talked about the fact that there are a number of challenges in terms of expanding the program, being the roads and the supporting infrastructure, housing and waste management. We've heard a fair bit about the roads. I'm wondering if you could maybe speak a little bit to the issues that you're having with housing and waste management. Ms Kelly : Waste management is becoming more and more of an issue, especially with commercial waste, which has to now be taken into town. It's just an extra cost on projects. But also, with the current rubbish dumps, just being able to access them throughout the wet season becomes quite problematic. But it comes back to the cost of removing commercial waste into Darwin. Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: What about housing? What are the issues around housing? Ms Kelly : Housing is always an issue for staff. It's not just for Tiwi Resources; it's for a lot of businesses. We are constantly looking at different locations. To actually find a location within community where you can build a new house is another issue. We're looking at building a house up at Milikapiti, on the block where we've got our marine ranger shed. There's space on that block for a house, but we just need to get funding to do it. We will get the funding. We'll make that happen because it's really important that we've got housing so that we can have our coordinators and managers there to support the ranger program. Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: When you say it's difficult to find land for housing, which organisations are the ones that have to— Ms Kelly : I'm just talking within the township leases, and so it's the Office of Township Leasing. Often they're full. There are not many spare blocks around. Mr Toy : There's only one serviceable lot available at Milikapiti at the moment. The other bit to that around waste management is the $4 billion over the 10 years for the remote housing partnership. We've got a challenge at the moment where we need to do seven demolitions down at Wurrumiyanga, but we've got a waste removal issue there. The building waste can be taken off island, but we've got to deal with the green waste issue. Until we deal with that, those seven houses aren't getting built, which is having an impact on the 2,700-house target that we've set through the joint steering committee. That's a different angle on the housing issue and waste—it's holding up community housing. CHAIR: Can I just follow on from what the senator was saying with the houses, the serviced lots and the availability of that. At the joint steering committee level, are people working through it? It's four land councils, the Northern Territory and the Commonwealth government. What's the view going through? Mr Toy : I guess the biggest challenge at the moment is the resourcing of the land servicing work that needs to be done. So there's a bit of a debate at joint steering committee around who's responsible for doing that. CHAIR: NT government. Mr Toy : Correct. So that's what the four land councils are saying. The land servicing funds shouldn't be taken out of the $4 billion, because that's to build houses. That's really the hold-up now—getting some clarity and some understanding around who's responsible for the land servicing. The four land councils don't want it to come out of the housing pool. CHAIR: They gave some figures to us at the Alice Springs leadership group. They were saying that, if they were to reduce the number of houses from the $4 billion, there would be a thousand fewer houses delivered across the Northern Territory remote communities— Mr Toy : That would be about right, yes. CHAIR: if they were to use it to service lots. It's just wrong. Communities shouldn't have to suffer. Mr Toy : The four land councils are doing our best to hold the NT government to account, saying, 'That's your responsibility,' but there's a bit of a— CHAIR: The minister went to the last land council meeting? Mr Toy : He came to the executive meeting down at Barunga. CHAIR: Were you able to talk to him through that? He's probably the most reasonable out of all of the CLP ministers. That minister is probably the only reasonable minister in the Northern Territory government. He's a good bloke. Mr Toy : Yes, that was commentary— CHAIR: I can't believe I said that about a Northern Territory minister, Luke! Mr GOSLING: It's in the Hansard! CHAIR: Can we take that off Hansard! Mr Toy : That was commentary that was consistent down there as well. Absolutely we advocate for all sorts of things. Where do you start? No matter what we're doing, we need more money for whatever it is—housing, roads or anything in Aboriginal affairs. I guess his challenge is going back to his government and his cabinet and getting agreement there. I think that's where the sticking point might be. CHAIR: You don't have to answer this, but I'd like to ask you this. Would the Tiwi Land Council, like CLC, Anindilyakwa LC and Northern LC, support a Productivity Commission audit which looks at the funding that comes from the federal government into the Northern Territory? Mr Toy : I think that was a common theme around greater levels of transparency of Commonwealth funding going through to the NT government, so any inquiry into that funding where we can get some transparency and accountability—but the land councils were wanting to take that further, into what the consequences are for nondelivery and noncompliance. The land council would certainly support any approach to investigating the appropriate use of Commonwealth funds to deliver outcomes for Territorians. CHAIR: We took a submission yesterday from Yothu Yindi Foundation and Gumatj Corporation calling for a Productivity Commission audit on all the GST funding, but I think it needs to be broader than just the GST funding. Mr Toy : Land council last week were calling for greater controls around the NTRAI funding that the Northern Territory receives and any other funding coming into the Territory being tied to Closing the Gap targets. Mr GOSLING: Did you put out any communications to that point? CHAIR: I can send it. It was from the four land councils. Mr Toy : There's a joint land councils statement on behalf of the four land councils stating that. CHAIR: I'll send it to you. The Central Land Council sent it through to Malarndirri and me. Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: Notwithstanding the barriers that we've talked about—housing, road conditions and waste management—if those barriers were to be addressed, what is the scope for expansion in relation to the Tiwi rangers program and the Tiwi Fire and Carbon Project? Ms Kelly : Our ultimate goal, which is part of our IPA plan of management, is that we build our ranger team up to 30. At the minute, we're at 15. Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: So double? Ms Kelly : Yes. As part of that, we want to increase the number of female rangers as well. That would give more coverage of both islands—not just around the communities but having more out in the more remote areas too. Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: I have one last question, and it's for the land council. Towards the end of your submission, on page 23, you have some further comments, and there are some there about climate change. Your submission talks about the fact that this inquiry is looking at industry right across the north and that what goes on in other places in northern Australia will impact people on the Tiwi Islands. Do you have any additional views around that? This committee's going to be, potentially, recommending the types of development that should happen versus those that shouldn't. Are there forms of development across the north that you think are not a good idea, with respect to climate change? Can you speak to some of the things that you are already seeing? Your submission says that climate impacts are already here on the Tiwi Islands. I'm interested in that. Mr Toy : There were two parts to that piece in the submission. One is about the emerging industries on Tiwi and their ability to function in a climate-changing world. Then there's also the other stuff that's going on that's having an impact on increased temperatures, rising sea levels and stuff like that. Specific examples include our sea waters and erosion. I can tell you firsthand that in Milikapiti I used to walk out the back of mum and dad's and there was a bit of dirt, then there was a sand dune and then the beach. That beach has crept up by about 20 metres in the last 10 years. Whether there's evidence to say that climate change has caused that or not is not for me to say, but they're the types of things that we're seeing. There are changes in migratory species. I'd probably need an environmentalist here to explain that. When I've spoken to people, there are small things that we have been seeing changing in the environment. We've got some feral animals coming in that have an impact on things. For me, one part of it was the rising temperatures and being able to develop an industry that survives not just in 10 years time but in 50 years time, when we may experience rises in climate. I think that was one piece of it. The other bit was on how we do the best we can in reducing emissions around the world et cetera to bring that down so that we can still be functioning in 50 years time. That was the two-part lens on it. I don't know if it's legitimate or not, but sometimes it just feels so much hotter than it used to. We're seeing greater bits of erosion and water levels changing. That's the type of climate that we're talking about that'll have an impact on what we can do over here. Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: I'm the Greens senator sitting on the committee. I have real concerns about the amount of federal money— CHAIR: We've all got concerns. Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: that's still going to gas, for example, which, when I listen to what you're telling me here today, would seem to me to be better off being invested in roads and connecting infrastructure, which will allow you to develop economically. I'm wondering about that. Mr Toy : That's exactly what we're saying. That investment that's being put elsewhere into things that are causing detrimental effects to the environment could be redirected into something now that's going to be a bit more sustainable. Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: Okay. Thank you. CHAIR: I think it's really important, I might provide some stuff to you, Brenton, about protecting some of those coastlines too. The federal Labor government has funded a whole lot of coastal support resilience grants to Christmas Island and to other places to stop that erosion, because you don't want to lose land either. Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: I'm a Queenslander, so I've been to Warraber and Poruma. The problem is that they've got sandbags going around half the island. If you look at a bathtub and you raise one side and you don't raise the other— CHAIR: But you're not going to be able to push. Anyway, we can have that debate until the cows come home, in terms of that. But I think that, in the short term, there could be some short-term solutions. I agree; I think that rising sea levels are a big part of— Mr Toy : Temperature. CHAIR: the impact of climate change that no-one looks at. I'm not disagreeing with you, Senator. Before we go, I'd like to say thank you very much for the Tiwi Land Council's submission. It was well written. It was quite comprehensive. It's probably the best land council submission I have seen, Brenton, and that's saying a lot. We've received many submissions. I want to thank you for the time that you took to make it, the team for putting in the submission and for your opinion, I think it's really good. There are some things that we probably need to come back to and respond to. It'd be good to talk a bit more about housing because, whilst our terms of reference look at some of that, one of the biggest challenges, in terms of infrastructure, is housing and how we get some of that done. Thank you, Yvonne, for your opening statement and for participating. It is great to see these two Tiwi ladies sitting here. I agree with Brendan. It is great to see Tiwi faces at the table. Finally, everyone is sitting at the table, all talking. That's what Tiwi is all about. It is about working together and talking. Thank you, Brenton, and all of you. I think it's great that they've got a Tiwi CEO now. Proceedings suspended from 12:26 to 12:37 .