BOWDEN, Mr Sean, Company Secretary and Legal Adviser, Gumatj Corporation BURARRWANGA, Mr Djawa, Director, Gumatj Corporation YUNUPINGU, Mr Djawa, Chairman, Gumatj Corporation CHAIR: I now welcome representatives from the Gumatj Corporation. I understand that information on parliamentary privilege and the protection of witnesses giving evidence to committees has been provided to you. Mr Bowden : Chair, if you permit me, I'd like to table two documents on behalf of the Yothu Yindi Foundation, who've asked me to attend today for that purpose and send their apologies for not being able to attend today, although Djawa is the chairman of the Yothu Yindi Foundation. CHAIR: Djawa, would you like to make an opening statement? At the conclusion of any remarks I will then invite members of the committee to ask questions. Is there anything you'd like to say at the outset? Otherwise we can go straight into conversation. Mr Yunupingu : I would not like to make any remarks at this stage. Maybe we can start and, as we progress, we can talk then. Is that all right? CHAIR: That's fine. Sean, do you want to make any opening statements or comments? Would you like me to go through our terms of reference? The committee has been travelling all around. We were going to go into central Australia as well. We've been over in Melissa's electorate, Durack, in the Kimberley; it goes nearly all the way down to Perth. We haven't been to North Queensland yet but we will be going. Part of it is looking at the global transition to net zero; further renewable decarbonisation and carbon abatement; developing critical minerals; the development of export industries; and supporting the decommissioning industry, which is really important when we look at this mine, Jabiru and other places. What's that decommissioning industry doing? We're also looking at support for the defence industry—we know there was the rocket launch pad here—and infrastructure; not just buildings but also roads and other key infrastructure. We're looking at managing biosecurity risks; training, attracting and retaining a skilled workforce; investment from governments—both NT and Commonwealth; and industry investment. We're also looking at empowering and upskilling local First Nations people—how much Yolngu people have been empowered and trained in barge landings and marine access for remote communities, not just here but around the region—and whether there's been much investment into research and development. These are some of the things, Djawa, that the committee has been talking to different communities about and has had a look at. Coming here, we had a long session of about an hour with Rio Tinto, which was a good conversation about what's next: What's the transition? What's the land tenure? With them exiting, what happens to places like Nhulunbuy? Is there a plan? Are Yolngu involved and driving that process? Sometimes there's a lot of balanda that have lived in these regions for 30, 40 or 50 years that might want to stay here. What happens with that? That would be a good conversation to have with you today. Mr Burarrwanga : That's a lot. CHAIR: It's just a little! Let's start with land tenure. Mr Yunupingu : Even though the mining company will go and exit from this country—from our place, our region—we would like, in our own words, to develop. We need infrastructure. We need better roads. I forgot what else came into my mind. I'll think of it. It's something that we always think, you know, if we had been planning—even if we currently work together with the mining company to put up our flags in a way that shows we work with this mining company, in collaboration. But it's always hard travelling down the dusty track. We need better roads. I cannot talk about Nhulunbuy. That's Rirratjingu. Although we have portions of land around here, they're not in the main township lease. We have a big port, as you are aware. Those big, huge tanks down at the wharf are just sitting there idle. We need to do something about it. We need those tanks for storing fuel. Maybe we could reserve a tank for fuel, if you like. The Defence Force, the ADF, could use it for reserve fuel. I was approached in Darwin by the Chief Minister and she talked briefly about it. I said, 'Let's talk together with the government, the federal government and traditional owners on that subject.' Overall, there are things that we need to set along that timeline if we come to terms, come to an agreement, about all this. With the land tenure itself, when real access can be returned to us, the Northern Land Council are the main people for that. Is there anything else, Mr Burarrwanga? Mr Burarrwanga : I think we need to develop a new economy and the history of this place for the future of this place, especially with the mining companies leaving. For Gumatj, it's to have a big plan—what I call a master plan—for us. We've got strong leaders, strong boards, people involved in economics and future plans. I think, from what I've seen in the last 10 to 20 years, Gumatj has been a very strong organisation. To do that, we work with the Territory government and the federal government to create something I call a master plan. That's the only opportunity—for us to be able to see and work with the federal government and the Territory government and other stakeholders. If we work together and build that economy for the First Nations to become able to understand, and especially for skills—it's our only way to bring that and the only way to talk to your federal government. It's about the Northern Territory government and how we can do it and build those opportunities together. I think that stakeholders like the shire council or other government organisations must have those possibilities to also work with small businesses. Small businesses are a strength in building that. Those are the only opportunities we can do, because shareholders, government agencies and departments—we need to work together with them to build the possibilities. I was in tourism for 25 years, and what I see for tourism is big opportunities because I worked on a very long journey with the corporates that are right across the states, even Australian tourism and Northern Territory tourism. There is an economy there, and opportunities there, to build that. How can we do it? It's infrastructure, roads or even those beautiful places that are right across our homelands. That could be a service. That could be a business to run, and that's a part of that economy. My vision and dream—I was a founder of Lirrwi Yolngu Tourism Corporation. I was going to try to build our future homelands right across a new economy. If we say, what is the new economy? There were a hundred people that I spoke to in the last 10 or 20 years. Their vision and dreams are there, but there's no support. There's no what I call, financially, seed money. That's what we need. CHAIR: Senator Allman-Payne? Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: Thank you very much for having us here today and for coming and speaking with us. Late last year, I went to Australia's Great North Conference. There were significant First Nations voices at that particular conference. A lot of people at that conference were saying that we need to move away from a paradigm where the only way to make money or develop the Northern Territory is to have a mine or a gas field and that there are plenty of other opportunities here, particularly around conservation. It's such an intact, pristine landscape that First Nations people have cared for for millennia. Even our own inquiry is coming with this idea of what industry is best to be here in the Territory. I'm really interested to understand, from your community's perspective—you've got a mine that's transitioning out. Is your community's view of what needs to come next more industry, or is it other things, like conservation work, tourism and other industries that are more compatible with care for country? Does that mean that what you're looking for, for example—rather than a billion dollars being given by government to a company to set up, would you rather have a billion dollars for roads so that people can actually get in and out of your community safely? I'm very interested to understand, from your perspective, what types of things you want to see on your country and replacing industry that's currently here—or is that just a whitefella view that I'm bringing, as opposed to what you actually want for your country? Mr Bowden : It might assist if I talk a little bit. I'm company secretary for the Gumatj Corporation and I also provide legal advice to the Gumatj clan. For many years I've also provided legal advice to his brother, the late Dr G Yunupingu, and to these men, so I have not quite a lifelong history, but a significant history, in observing the contours of the relationships in this place and how they've developed. I think what might be useful at this juncture is to explain a little bit about what the Gumatj Corporation does at the moment, some of their activities and some of their businesses that exist. There are a number of industrial operations. One is a mine. It's known as the Gulkula mine and it's up near Garma. It was a stranded deposit, in some respects, from the main mine, but, when Rio Tinto first came—it wasn't Rio Tinto back then; BALCO [inaudible] came—this area was left aside. Dr Yunupingu had his eye on it for a long time. There was a very strong objective for Gumatj to engage in the modern world and to be modern operators in what he used to describe as modernity. It's a word that I learnt from him. Therefore, when the first opportunity arose in negotiating with the mining company for renewal of the mining leases, it was a primary objective to get that. It's an extraordinary testament to the Gumatj people and others who've worked with them that they've been able to develop and operate that mine. That's only one of many though. There's also a forestry industry that was established for decades here. Yolngu people observed the timber being pushed over—it still happens—and burnt on this mine. A second objective also in that agreement was to get the concession to take the timber both on the mining lease and also on Gumatj land. That's turned into a nice little operation that continues to this day and sells timber. There's a civil company that has a quarry and creates aggregate and sand and sells it—similar to the Rirratjingu people, who have a similar operation. There's also a house-building company that builds houses in the region. There's also a very strong Gumatj interest in the Dhimurru rangers. I'm not sure if they're speaking to you later today, but that speaks to the land management ideals as well. The idea is that one doesn't cancel out the other. A normal, functioning economy relies on many things and many options. In my observation—and Yolngu people will always speak for themselves—Yolngu people haven't been keen on cancelling anything out to the expense of another. It's 'What are these opportunities?' Of course the love of country and the desire to maintain the environment is a primary driving factor, and I think the rangers program that's being supported by the Commonwealth is a wonderful program that speaks loudly to that and does good things through Dhimurru and the other rangers. Gumatj Corporation supports that. The other thing the corporation does that's important and not often known is support to the ceremonial life of the Yolngu people and the Gumatj people—particularly around normal ceremonies for deaths, young boys coming through and these matters. A lot of the income that is generated and the royalty income is put aside into a fund for that purpose because the land, the people and the ceremonies are so interconnected. That's a long way of answering your question about what the objectives might be but my observation is that everything's on the table. There's also a sense that the world's about to change very significantly in this part of the world. I think we all know the history of the mine being imposed here. I won't go into a discussion about that, but that's a well-known history. It's still subject to some other proceedings in front of courts, so we won't discuss that today, but, when Rio Tinto do leave, it's going to leave a glaring and irreparable economic hole in this part of the world. As I understand the numbers, $250 million to $260 million a year of GDP will disappear from this part of the world. I'm not sure whether that factors in royalties—I imagine it does—but that is a massive deficit. It's going to be very difficult to fill. Now, there'll be people who leave the region, of course, and that will give Yolngu people an opportunity to breathe and to have these other opportunities. It's also going to confront people with a lot of very serious, next-step decisions, and I don't think expectations that have built up over 15 years will be able to be fulfilled anymore. That's the point of both men here about roads and infrastructure: notwithstanding the mining company here, roads and infrastructure outside of this town are appalling. I haven't been to the Third World, but they're not up to standard. I'm not sure whether Laynhapuy are speaking today, but they will tell you about the terrible deficit in roads. Later I might come back to some of the fundamentals around that; I won't deal with that now. But homelands are running off 70 per cent diesel at the moment, as I understand it, which is another major challenge to the future of homelands. How are these homelands that are so important to the Yolngu people going to be maintained and going to continue for the next 50, 100 and 250 years? I think these are really big questions that haven't been answered yet, and it's difficult to answer them sometimes when day-to-day life is so busy and stressful. There's a funeral going on at the moment. There are always funerals—there's always life and death getting in the way of all these things—arising from some of the conditions here. I might stop there, but obviously we can continue to take questions and continue our discussion. Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: Thank you. That's helpful. Certainly from my perspective, and I'm sure for other members of the committee too, it's really important to understand what it is that communities actually want and need as opposed to what we come in assuming they want and need. Ms PRICE: Thanks so much for joining us here today. That was a great explanation, Sean, about the portfolio that your corporation already has. So congratulations with regard to that. The way I see it, there's a huge opportunity for you going into the future but, if you—and we—don't get it right, there'll be tumbleweeds coming down in and out of Nhulunbuy. We took evidence from Rio before, which we were very grateful to them for. I don't think we quite appreciated at the beginning that we were going to talk so in detail about land tenure and whether there will be an opportunity. If you're an individual—because we know that there are 330 people who work full time for Rio living in this community. I'm assuming some of them belong to your mob. Would that be true? I'm trying to understand the make-up of Nhulunbuy. Mr Yunupingu : Some, yes. Ms PRICE: We're trying to understand what the community will look like when Rio vacate and do what they say they're going to do, and that's to cease mining by 2030. We're halfway through 2026, and 2030 is going to come around really, really quickly. I think there's a little bit of anxiety amongst some of us here today that that's actually not very far away. What we understand from Rio's evidence is that there is a consultation group, and a lot of the questions we asked Rio were about what the future is for private ownership of land. I used the example of Dampier. I come from Dampier, in Western Australia. Rio has a big mining operation, and they owned all the houses in Dampier. Now, it's a different underlying land tenure—I accept that—but they sold the houses to the to the employees. So the employees had been living in these houses for 30 years, and they could buy them. I think that's a great outcome for an individual. It keeps them in the community so that maybe they can work on some of those other projects that you've got or, indeed, some other project that someone might have. For example, who's going to own the solar farm? That sounds like a great bit of kit for somebody to get their hands on. I don't really have a question. I'm really excited about the future for you all here, but we've got to get on with it. No one is going to make these decisions except for you. It's an enormous weight on your shoulders. I get that. It seems to me that you've got a great opportunity right now, because, understandably so, Rio said, in response to one of the questions we asked them, 'That's going to be a part of the working group, and we're going to work together.' But I think the time is now for your organisation to have a view about what you actually want, and maybe you've got leverage. If there are roads that need to be fixed out to the port, if I have understood correctly, you say: 'Yes, that's fine. We want to take on those assets at the port, but, in return for that, we need that road to be fixed.' I used to work in business development as well, so I'm trying to think about what life looks like for your mob at the end of this. Is there key infrastructure that currently Rio Tinto owns—here is a question—that you think would be good for your organisation and your mob? Mr Bowden : There is. Ms PRICE: If there's anything that you think is a bit confidential, we'll understand if you say, 'Well, that's probably not something we can answer now.' Mr Yunupingu : It's okay. Ms PRICE: We've got a number of people we're talking to today, and I will guarantee you we're going to talk about this the whole day. Mr Yunupingu : The mining company, Rio Tinto, is going to go, which will be a huge impact on our statutory royalties. That's one. They go; we're over the cliff. But Aborigines thrive, as we speak: we save, save, save for rainy days, as the saying goes. When they go, we'll dig out what we have saved for employment for our people. I don't think it will impact us, in a way, with how we've saved our royalties. We don't pocket our money. Everything is saved for the next three to four years. We've saved money for the last 15 years, and we're in a good position. But we have a civil company we just started. It's roadworks. We own a batch plant. That's where our assets are—a couple of million dollars worth of assets—and they will be put to good use. We have our own quarry, a blue metal quarry, for the roads, and we intend to employ our people as well. Like I mentioned, we save, save, save. Ms PRICE: Is there infrastructure currently owned by Rio Tinto that you would like? Apparently, that's what's happening. Mr Yunupingu : We've been talking about it. Ms PRICE: I just wanted to check. Mr Yunupingu : Rio Tinto and Gumatj have been talking about what we will take and what they'll leave behind for us, like a good guest. As long as you work in collaboration to the end with this mining company is always my way of thinking. I've been telling them, 'When the time comes, you'll have to pack up your bags if you leave.' And that's a good way. Ms PRICE: You want to make sure what you get is in good condition, as well. Mr Yunupingu : Yes. Ms PRICE: Anyway, that's why you've got Sean, right? Mr Bowden : I'm a servant of better masters. Could I add a little bit. In answer to your question, I have some more technical answers. Djawa mentioned fuel tanks earlier. I would urge this committee to look at the Rio Tinto asset portfolio—it's available publicly—as to what is at that port area, which is on Gumatj land. There are significant fuel tanks there that remain, and I think it's an extraordinary opportunity in the current climate for the federal government, the traditional owners and Rio to mobilise those tanks for the benefit not just of the region but of the nation. Djawa mentioned the discussion with the chief minister. I think you'll find that the chief minister would be very motivated around this, and I'd hope that the federal government would be also. You will run immediately into logistical issues of people down south not understanding where we are and coming up with barriers to why the fuel can't be left here as a fuel security asset. There's certainly enough space and capacity there, and the tanks are there. You wouldn't have to build them. They're there. The guarantee from Rio Tinto would be, I'm sure, if you asked them, that if that is not done those tanks will be removed and destroyed and will be there no longer. That's what has to happen. The same will happen to the port: the port will go. There will be no capacity of the local traditional owner group to maintain that port. There's a barge landing. Again, I'd urge you to do a tour and go out there if you haven't already. There's an export wharf and a general cargo wharf. I'd imagine both of those would be severely challenged going forward. There's a barge landing back closer, which would probably remain for the barge to come in. Again, they will not be here in five years time if a mobilisation is not effected with— CHAIR: So, with the tanks and the barge landing—Rio assets—isn't that part of the negotiations? You would be negotiating, as Gumatj, with the NT government, with different groups and with Rio. When you look at those assets, do you say, 'These are the assets; we want to maintain them'? Mr Bowden : I couldn't see how a small corporation would want to maintain big fuel tanks into the future. There'd be no capacity without a government partner. CHAIR: No, but that would be something the NT government— Mr Bowden : Yes. CHAIR: If the NT government were part of the transition, it would be in their interest to maintain something— Mr Bowden : Yes. Similarly, for the general cargo wharf, you'd think so. But I'm not involved in detail with those discussions, so I can't speak to that. All I know is that there are rehabilitation obligations on the mining company and, when the mining company leaves, that's what they'll be focused on. CHAIR: Where's electricity generated from for Nhulunbuy? Isn't it out there? Mr Bowden : In part it is, yes. The generators are out there, as I understand it, and there's a complicated system between power and water and Rio Tinto lines that run into different communities. This is another really complex piece of work that needs to be unpicked, and certainty needs to be given. CHAIR: They might be additional questions we send to Rio and the Northern Territory government. Mr Bowden : I think so. I think that's really important. I should have apologised earlier for Klaus Helms, the Chief Executive Officer of the Gumatj Corporation, whose in rehabilitation for an operation at the moment. He sends his apologies. He would have the answers to these questions. We can certainly provide further information to those. CHAIR: Would you take that on notice? Mr Bowden : I can take that on notice, and we can provide detailed information about the operations of the Gumatj Corporation and also about an issue around the power. I'm sure we can provide you with a note on that. The other thing Djawa touched on that is worth mentioning is what you might call a Gumatj future fund. It's a credit to the family and the clan that they have built up this future fund. One point I think he's making is that the Gumatj clan are one clan of 13, 14 or 15 here in this region and not every clan will have that future fund, because they haven't been recipients of royalties. There will be an obligation, though, upon the Gumatj to continue to assist those other families and clans, and that will weigh in on that future fund as it goes. We're hoping that it lasts forever, that it's a strong, powerful fund that will generate sufficient interest that businesses will continue. But that's not guaranteed by any means either. CHAIR: So you've got a big outstation or homelands movement in this region, Jowar, and, if Nhulunbuy is the hub of this region post this transition in 2030, will that future fund look at supporting the 42 homelands in this region? They all depend on this, and they'll all be depending on you— Mr Yunupingu : They might all be depending on Gumatj! CHAIR: They will all be depending on you! Mr Yunupingu : To cut the story short, we've always been generous people and have always helped our countrymen down the road broadly, in ceremonies and to provide food for the ceremonies and meat. Because we have a cattle farm down the road, meat usually goes to them for free. CHAIR: Senator Allman-Payne. Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: From this inquiry's perspective, this committee is going to be making recommendations to the federal government. So it would be good to understand, at the heart of your evidence today, what you would like to see this committee recommending to the federal government in relation to this community and the process, as you come out the other side of Rio transitioning out. Mr Yunupingu : We have the assets that sit at the hub, the general cargo wharf itself. Why I say that is because, if we want to start this rocket thing again, we need that port so ships can bring the rockets in. But, speaking of the spaceport itself, we're still looking for customers. Some are interested. They've already talked about trying to start it up again. That's another economic development for this region. Hopefully it will keep the town alive a bit and will also create employment for our people. But the wharf is a must. Even though the federal government wants to help, and the NT government, the traditional owners make sure there are no liabilities involved. We need to work on this together when the time comes, if we find customers for rocket adventures or whatever that is. Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: Can I clarify something. I want to make sure I'm understanding correctly. Are you saying that you want to see government taking ownership and control of the port infrastructure because that's not something that the corporation would want to have the responsibility for? Mr Yunupingu : It's not the Gumatj corporation that needs it, but we need it for the region. The Northern Territory government is the government that we need to talk to about that—and the federal government. Mr GOSLING: My question follows on from that. Ideally you want some anchor tenants in here, industrial or whatever's going to be productive and fits with the region and what it wants to achieve. Is there anything you can say about the proponents that are interested in coming in here and that will seek to use fuel or will seek to use the port facilities? Is there anything that's able to be said about those negotiations or even the types of industries that have shown an interest in setting up here? Mr Yunupingu : We've never had interest from people from the outside except for the government. It's just a talk. We're yet to sit at a table and get the best agreement or whatever we can. Mr GOSLING: Last time I was here, there was talk about some energy companies— Mr Yunupingu : Only talk. Mr GOSLING: Tyre kickers! Mr Yunupingu : Nothing's come to that, no. Nothing's ever been—it's just a talk. Mr Bowden : I think that that strategic fuel reserve should be a real focus. The Commonwealth would be a customer in using those tanks and could create a tripartite negotiation with Rio Tinto, the traditional owners, the Northern Territory government—maybe there are four parties there, actually—and the Commonwealth. That would be an immediate uplift that would support the infrastructure on the port, because you need to maintain the port as well. In this jurisdiction, we always experience a little bit of passing between Territory and Commonwealth governments, and we can get caught in the middle very quickly. We understand—I'm going to talk to this towards the end if I have 10 minutes—the fiscal situation that presents itself in the Northern Territory at the moment and how difficult it is. Also, in the short preparation I did to come here, I wanted to bring and table an academic article. I'll read it in for the record, it's called 'The Development of Bauxite at Gove, 1955 to 1975', by Mr David Lee from Deakin University. It's in the Journal of Australasian Mining History, volume 12, 2014. Mr Lee has also written a book about bauxite and manganese being the second rush in Australian mining. He focuses on Gove in this article. Maybe I'll pass it up. I brought a couple of copies. I won't labour it too long as an academic exercise, but I think it's important. There are two histories in this region. Obviously, there's the Yolngu history and it's often very well known, going from the Yirrkala bark petitions through to the Gove land rights case and so on and so forth, to the very famous Yolngu people—renowned politicians, artists and leaders—out of this region. But the real history of this place that we're in is a nation-building bauxite/alumina/aluminium exercise where, postwar, the Australian nation decided that it needed to develop these industries. Bauxite, alumina and aluminium was a critical industry, back then, and it was part of Australia entering modernity and being an industrial nation following the war. I would really recommend a read here, as a history of how we got here today, because the Commonwealth facilitated it. The Commonwealth facilitated this mine as a nation-building project. It even held 50 per cent of the mining tenements at one point. The point I'm leading to is that if there is going to be satisfaction, in terms of a post-mining future here, the Commonwealth is going to have to lead it and it's going to have to see this region—and it has the opportunity to see this region—as another nation-building opportunity but a different one. This is not a one-industry future; there'll be a number of industries. The Gumatj do hold exploration leases still, looking for critical minerals, of which bauxite is on the list. But without really serious Commonwealth weigh-in and buy-in here, these things will just become run-of-the-mill exercises, and people will be left in different regions to battle it out themselves. So I commend that article as a background to a history that sometimes isn't well understood. It also explains the mining company's objective. It's a corporation. It's here to mine. It's here to get that product off. That's part of our economic framework and, when it goes, it'll go. There's a footnote in this article that's caught my eye. I don't want to overstate it, but it's on page 141 in the first paragraph. It talks about the Commonwealth contribution to build Nhulunbuy. It's often thought that the mining company built Nhulunbuy, but it talks here of a $39 million contribution by the Commonwealth. I don't want to put that higher than it is, but in today's dollars that's about $580 million, from the short calculations I did this morning. The Commonwealth weighed in very heavily here to support the industry. It brought in Australian shareholders that owned the company with Alusuisse. To the credit of the Yolngu people, they stood up and said, 'We're not going to have this imposed on us,' and that history is known. In the absence of a mining company, it's that sort of contribution that's going to be required in this region, and in all the regions in the Northern Territory, to bring them up to standard because the infrastructure isn't up to standard out here. There isn't the history of postwar development in the Aboriginal communities, either here or elsewhere in the Northern Territory. The communities—the member for Lingiari knows this really well, as does the member for Solomon. Anywhere you go in the Northern Territory, outside of the main cities and even in the main capital cities, we don't have the standard of infrastructure and a quality that exists elsewhere. The challenge for this committee and for all of us is really quite significant and, unless we can get the eyes a bit higher, we'll be back here in two or three years as the mine closes down and we'll be having the same discussion. I apologise to my colleagues, here, for speaking for too long about that and getting too ahead. Mr GOSLING: In terms of workforce development, for the different kinds of jobs that are done by council, Gumatj has got some of the contracts, such as for fuel provision. Are CDU or other training providers providing the skill uplift or capacity that the nation needs or are there areas where there are gaps, where you want young Yolngu to be trained up in different areas so that they're ready, as Rio Tinto pulls out, to take over some of those key jobs—different types of jobs, whether it be administration or more hands on the tools or management of housing assets, for example? There are a whole range of jobs. There's the opportunity there, but is the training provider there from CDU or other providers? Mr Yunupingu: [inaudible] with time, as we speak. I think CDU are the people that come to our community to train. We have another entity, which is the Marngarr Resource Centre Aboriginal Corporation. That entity is the training arm. People are trained at the resource centre in readiness to, once qualified, enter the main workforce with the Gumatj Corporation Ltd. Mr GOSLING: What was the name, sorry, of that resource— Mr Yunupingu : Marngarr Resource Centre Aboriginal Corporation. That's where the people are trained before they go into the main workforce. Mr GOSLING: And Gumatj funds that resource centre? Mr Yunupingu: Yes. At this stage, we are funding it because there's no funding coming in from outside. We are doing this ourselves, giving money to this entity to train our people to go into the workforce. Mr GOSLING: Has the resource centre mapped the types of jobs that are going to need to be filled? Mr Yunupingu: Yes, there are jobs there, but they are going to need to get the training first. Sean mentioned earlier that we do have our own building company. There are many businesses that we own. Woodworks is one of them. They harvest the timber, and the boys can work there. They build the houses, roof trusses and whatever. Bricks are made locally. Mr GOSLING: Does the resource centre have a management course for going into the opportunities that might come up with managing assets and maintaining assets? Mr Yunupingu: They do get training in that field. But, otherwise, it's work that people do in the community. They train and they go into the workforce, like I mentioned before. That supports the workers' families. Mr GOSLING: I've heard CDU talk a lot about the Nhulunbuy campus, but I just want to be sure that their training offering is matching what the community need is going forward. The federal government has allocated some funding to make sure there can be more training done out here, rather than all in Darwin. I'd be happy to take any advice on how we can help the peninsula here with the pathways to take over those jobs that are going to be needed. Mr Bowden : To answer the question from my knowledge, I'm not aware there's any relationship between CDU and Marngarr Resource Centre Aboriginal Corporation. Largely, that resource centre is self-funded and it runs a youth hub down at Gunyangara, and it also self-funds with support from Gumatj for a community care crew who are currently up at the Gulkula site preparing the site for Garma. There's also a ladies and a men's group. I saw the ladies this morning at Gunyangara working, but I'm not aware that there's any (a) government funding in there or (b) any relationship with CDU or any other provider for that organisation. That's not a criticism. I'm not aware of any other details. It's just a fact I think. In relation to Gunyangara—for the record, I should have said earlier that Gunyangara is subject to a 99-year township lease. It is unique: it's the first model of its kind. It's a township lease that's granted under the Aboriginal Land Rights (Northern Territory) Act 1976 for 99 years, similar to Canberra, to a corporation called Ngarrariyal Aboriginal Corporation. That corporation is controlled by the Gumatj people, who are the traditional owners for Gunyangara. That has given a strong sense of ownership, control and direction to the landowners at Gunyangara, who control that. All of the land there is under tenure and is leased to somebody. There's a great sense of security. There's the great opportunity to plan. The township lease runs up and abuts the port area—Rio Tinto's leases—so there would be a natural opportunity, when Rio Tinto leave and relinquish their lease, for that to become part of the township lease. That's another discussion with the traditional owners, but it's also another indication of the leadership and common-sense thinking of Yolngu people in terms of not having a lease, like elsewhere, which is controlled by a Commonwealth entity but having a lease that's controlled by the traditional owners. I think it's fair to say it has worked very well. Unidentified speaker: Yes. Mr Bowden : Gunyangara is a place that's got a lot of opportunity for the future. It's a very ancient place, but it's also got this modern footprint, and that 99-year lease is part of it. Mr GOSLING: Do you mean from a tourism perspective? Mr Bowden : No—as a base, as a living area, as a community and as a township for Yolngu people. Mr Yunupingu: I think tourism is still a long way off from us, but we have plans. CHAIR: We had a conversation this morning with Rio, talking about Gunyangara and the township police there. Once the mining lease ends here, what's the land tenure and the plan for Nhulunbuy amongst Gumatj, Rirratjingu and Galpu? With all of the groups and with Northern Land Council, there must be some conversations. What's, then, the land tenure? Mr Yunupingu: I think Rirratjingu might want to talk on that, because I've got no impression. CHAIR: Alright. I'll put that to them. Mr Yunupingu: Gumatj has no impression—Nhulunbuy. CHAIR: We'll put that to them in terms of Nhulunbuy. So most of the port assets, though, are on that peninsula off the main town area. Is that Galpu? Mr Bowden : Gumatj. CHAIR: So not Galpu? Mr Yunupingu: Tiny— CHAIR: Only that tiny bit—that's alright. I'm just trying to refresh myself in terms of that— Mr Yunupingu: The big water tank—on that side. That's the Galpu area. Mr Bowden : The last thing for the record that I want to just mention in relation to Gumatj Corporation is some discussions had with Minister Ayres and his department about collaboration and support for future exploration under tenements owned by Gulkula Mining Company. Djawa Yunupingu has written to Minister Ayres about that, looking for that collaboration and providing information. That's a really important thing that could be done, with the Commonwealth, into the future. There's a range of support programs and investments the Commonwealth have got in that respect, particularly around critical minerals. It's fundamental to the future of the region, that that option remains on the table. That brings back talk about the road, it needing to be upgraded. There is money allocated for the road, but it needs constant eyes on it. If you're bringing that resource in, you need a port to export it. If there's no port, you won't be able to export those minerals; it's all over. There is an ecosystem here, that's got potential for the future, but there is a lot of work to do to get it right. Engagement with government is going to be critical. As I said earlier, there needs to be nation-building 'Mark 2' in north-east Arnhem Land, and it's great that all the ingredients are here to get it right. CHAIR: We could ask Minister Ayres for information on— Mr Bowden : That's a matter for you, the committee, but we've certainly written to him and we're hopeful that they'll be continuing discussions. They're confidential, at this stage, but it's an opportunity for us to continue that discussion with his office. CHAIR: That's for future exploration, that Gulkula mines want to go forward with. Do you want us to put that question on notice to you, in terms of providing the committee with information, going forward? You don't have to discuss—we could just write and whether information comes to us. Mr Bowden : The exploration licence applications are on the public record, so we can certainly send those to you as part of the information pack. CHAIR: Okay. Is there anything further any of you want to add? Mr Yunupingu : For us, we just keep going. It's what's best for our clan or the families. We'll keep building, well into the future. CHAIR: Djawa, before we finish, Rio Tinto was talking about 371 employees that they have at the moment. Do you think any of those employees might want to come across to Gumatj to work in the various industries? Mr Yunupingu : Maybe, if we open up another mine. But we would need trainers from the mining sector to train our people. That's what I'm thinking. CHAIR: Yes. Those would be conversations that the NT, Commonwealth, yourselves and the various partners would need to work through. Mr Yunupingu : We used to have a mining training centre. Now the training centre has become accommodation for our miners at Gulkula mine. CHAIR: Thank you for coming today and giving evidence. Is there anything further you wish to add? Yes, Sean? Mr Bowden : Djawa just reminded me that I've been asked to table some background material. It's a submission by the Yothu Yindi Foundation to Ms Danielle Wood, Chair of the Productivity Commission, dated 27 February 2026, concerning GST distribution reforms. I'd like to table that, if I could, and then speak to it very briefly. CHAIR: Yes. Mr Bowden : Some of you would be aware that the GST discussion's a very big discussion in the Northern Territory, particularly given the fact that the Territory government now—80 per cent of the income comes through the GST. And that's an important point that's addressed in this paper. But there are a number of other important points that are relevant for Commonwealth eyes and ears. The starting point is the conclusion by the Yothu Yindi Foundation that the formula of horizontal fiscal equalisation has failed the Northern Territory as a whole. It's not working in the Northern Territory, and, more to the point, it's consigning Aboriginal people in the Northern Territory to generational disadvantage. YYF has contended this for many years. It says: It is YYF's contention that the method of federal financial relations and its central principle of HFE is today the primary contributor to the disadvantage experienced by remote Aboriginal people in the Northern Territory. The fundamental part of this comes from the whole idea of horizontal fiscal equalisation. What does it do? It keeps you as you are. It's there to horizontally fiscally equalise you as you are. So the first step is to assess the disadvantage then the GST formula provides that a certain amount of money is paid to the state and territory governments. In the Northern Territory's case, there's an inflater of about four or five times. Those moneys are sent untied to the Northern Territory government. So, even though they're generated by way of disadvantage, they go into the treasury of the Northern Territory untied. However, those funds are only sent to keep you as you are. They're not there for the discussion we're having today, which is about how we generate additional income to fill the gap that exists for remote areas that have never been subjected to national growth and the postwar booms of the other states and territories. The Northern Territory is a very special and different jurisdiction, and the horizontal fiscal equalisation formula simply doesn't have the capacity to go above the line. It keeps you as you are. What we know from 'as you are' is that every year the generational disadvantage gets worse, and those of us who are in these regions can see that. There are a number of dot points. It says that it's not fit for purpose anymore, that, because of the Northern Territory's history, geography and socioeconomic conditions, the model does not allow the Territory to deliver the equivalent standard anymore and that the distribution model 'has had the perverse effect of commodifying Aboriginal disadvantage, by inflating revenue payments based on disadvantage but not to a level that will ever address the disadvantage'. Then you have special purpose payments made to the Northern Territory by the Commonwealth, and they're often very generous. However, you find in the formulas, if you work into it, that they are taken off the GST formula. So you have, again, an equalising factor. We've also been struck by the benefits given to Western Australia. I apologise to the Western Australians in the room, but Western Australia has received an uplift to bring it to 50 per cent. We would very much like to have the income and the wonderful infrastructure of Western Australia, but we don't. So that has impacted the Northern Territory because it has reduced the pool for the distributions. As I mentioned before, the distributions to the Northern Territory government are now moving towards 80 per cent and are untied and there's no ability of people on the ground here—ostensibly, those to whom the money is sent—to influence those decision-makers, other than to be diplomats and continue to do the work that's always been done. So I table that. I won't speak to it anymore. It's for the Productivity Commission, but I think it does inform and give context to the discussion we're having today and just how hard the discussion is and how hard the challenge is to bring this region up. Djawa Burarrwanga, who runs a magnificent tourism business at Bawaka, at the moment has suffered cyclonic damage. The roads are cut. He is paying $4 a litre for diesel most likely and was having discussions with us this morning about just how hard it is. That's the primary tourist venture in the region as far as we know. So life is difficult. I think it's great to be able to ventilate some of those challenges at this forum, and I apologise if I've overspoken this morning. CHAIR: Thank you. I can tell you that you won't get any argument out of me for a Productivity Commission audit. I thank all of you for your evidence today. The committee has agreed that any responses to questions—we'll write those couple that you agreed to take on notice—should be provided within two weeks. You'll receive a copy of the Hansard transcript, which has been recorded. Then, if we can get that further information, that would be good. Proceedings suspended from 12:44 to 13:39 .