RYAN, Mr Matthew, Chairperson, Northern Land Council Committee met at 08:47 CHAIR ( Ms Scrymgour ): I declare open this hearing of the Joint Standing Committee on Northern Australia. I begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which we meet, the Larrakia people, and I pay my respects to their elders past and present. I extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people here today. These are public proceedings being audiostreamed live via the parliament's website, and a Hansard transcript is being made. I remind witnesses that in giving evidence to the committee they are protected by parliamentary privilege. It is unlawful for anyone to threaten or disadvantage a witness on account of evidence given to a committee, and such action may be treated as a contempt. It is also a contempt to give false or misleading evidence. Witnesses have the right to request to be heard in camera. If a witness objects to answering a question, they should state the ground upon which the objection is made, and the committee will determine whether it will insist on an answer, having regard to the ground which is claimed. If the committee determines to insist on an answer, a witness may request that the answer be given in camera. Welcome, Mr Ryan. I understand that information on parliamentary privilege and the protection of witnesses giving evidence to the committee has been provided to you. I now invite you to make a short opening statement. At the conclusion of any remarks, I invite members of the committee to ask questions. Mr Ryan : In terms of Aboriginal economic development in the Northern Land Council region and contemporary evidence and policy directions, the key points are that Aboriginal communities' experience and contemporary research show that Aboriginal land based, culturally grounded development models are the most effective in remote communities in the Northern Territory region. A hybrid economy which incorporates the customary, market and state sectors remains the most accurate description of economic life in remote Aboriginal communities, land and sea, cultural economics and emerging industry. This industry includes carbon, renewable agriculture and digital. They are the strongest growth pathways to policy settings that prioritise local governance, institutional capability and equity of participation to deliver the most durable and long-term outcomes. Compliance-heavy programs, such as CDP, continue to suppress participation and require structural reform. The NLC region covers more than 200,000 kilometres of Aboriginal land and sea—and probably more in square kilometres—across Arnhem Land, Katherine, the Victoria River District and the Roper Gulf region. It has been researched by numerous well-respected people. Jurisdiction succeeds when it is Aboriginal led—I'm sorry, I'll skip that. Land and sea management delivers stable employment, environmental outcomes aligned with national climate goals, strengthened cultural authority, scalable economic opportunities, carbon biodiversity credits, biosecurity and cultural monitoring programs. I'll leave it at that. CHAIR: Deputy Chair. Ms PRICE: Thank you very much for joining us here today, Mr Ryan. This inquiry is all about preparing for emerging industries. From what I understand and from what you've just spoken about, there are poor road conditions. I know that in your submission there's talk of different land tenure models. What projects are you or people within the Northern Land Council family aware of that are not happening because of poor connectivity? Are there projects people are talking to you about, whether it's this project or that project, a new resort or whatever—you name it? What's not happening because the basic infrastructure is not in place? Mr Ryan : When I first became the chair, one of the fundamental points I raised with the gas company, Tamboran, and also with APA, that's happening in the Borroloola and Barkly region, is that there needs to be some sort of an agreement—but a proper agreement. There needs to be ownership in terms of whatever is established. Either it's the pipeline or it's the gas. There needs to be proper negotiation from the NLC point of view towards the traditional owners and the gas company or industry. In talks at the moment, I've been really firm in terms of wanting to see outcomes and opportunity. We want to see accommodation built in the region. The Barkly region, for instance, is going to blossom. It's going to go big. We want to see better outcomes for our people. At the moment, I don't see this collective decision-making in terms of collaboration right across the region. I think, to answer, the industry and gas and mining companies—we should be all working together so that traditional owners prosper from the potential of what's happening in our region. At the moment, for too long—I must stress 'for too long'. Even from back then, no-one has had the opportunity to work with the traditional owners. I see this style of working go right across, even coming from the funding bodies. I must stress, again, that the funding bodies are silos. They don't work with the traditional owners and the land council, mind you. I see that there's a greater need for collaboration here. I haven't seen one ownership of the area in terms of potential purchase of land or cattle or something. We need to do better. You've got the funding. ILC, IBA and Aboriginal Investment NT need to work in collaboration. At the moment, it frustrates me as the chair. When I speak to the traditional owners they say—there was one recently at Barunga asking: 'How can I be part of the industry? How can I co-own the mining company?' That talk needs to be at a high level, and I don't see that happening very soon. I'm pushing as the chair; trust me. I've been very consistent with my advocacy in terms of what TOs should be owning rather than just the royalties. I'm done with royalties. Yes, there may be a little bit, but it's about time we own something, for the long term. Ms PRICE: I was really hoping that that's what you were going to say. Thank you. My work is done! CHAIR: Senator Allman-Payne. Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: Thanks for taking the time out to come before the committee today, and thanks for the comprehensive submission that you gave to the committee. Reading through it, I get the impression that many of the things you touch on are the precursors to emerging industries—things like food security, housing security and education—and that those things have to happen first before we can even consider emerging industries. I'm interested in your view around that. My second question is the following. The terms of reference of this inquiry presuppose that there are a range of industries that are going to happen, particularly in the Territory, but it doesn't look to me like there's actual co-design with traditional owners and First Nations people as to what industries you want here. I'm interested to know, firstly, about the underlying piece about what needs to happen around food and housing security before industry can even thrive and, secondly, about what types of industries First Nations people want here in the Territory as opposed to what a committee says are the ones we're looking at. Mr Ryan : Part of our recommendation is to partner or co-design with the regional economic development strategy and align with the traditional owners' strategies and establish a multiyear Indigenous economic development fund focused on governance, capability and enterprise right across. As far as I'm concerned, that has not been established for a long time. With the food security—the chair knows this—you've got to get the health, education and housing right. We've got to get the infrastructure right also. The road, as we said earlier, is appalling. It needs an upgrade. It needs better funding and direct funding. Even with the barge, again, it's an appalling asset that we have. If we get them right, we will have the flow-on effect in terms of food security, but we have to get the housing and the health right. I'm not sure if anyone has seen the article today in regard to my people dying in rapid numbers. It's concerning me. We're not sure why. We want to be able to find out why. It's overcrowded. We're not sure whether it's lack of food. We don't know. We need to work in collaboration. We need to be partnering with the community, the local shire and the Northern Territory government. The Northern Territory government needs to work better with our communities. At the moment, it's a 'my way or the highway' attitude, the way I see it. It's concerning to me as one of the leaders from the community. We want to be part of the core design, the decision-making and empowering the community. We haven't seen that yet. There's a lot of talk but no action. It concerning to me as a First Nations person. I grew up in poverty. I grew up on a homeland. I've seen the livelihood. We can prosper by working together. Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: Does the land council have a view on the types of industries that you would prefer to see in the NT that provide long-term security and sustainability? Mr Ryan : Oh, yes. We want to see industry that has the potential for Indigenous people to have co-ownership or some sort of agreement, like owning two per cent or whatever. I think it's about time that we got serious about economic development. I've seen Aboriginal economic development forums in Darwin, but no-one has profited or no-one has taken the opportunity. No-one has come to my communities to talk to my people. They're all based in Darwin or Canberra. No-one has come or reached out to my people and asked, 'What's the opportunity for you as traditional owners?' I haven't seen that. And it's drip-fed where it should be—if there's an idea, work with the traditional owners. As the chair, I've been pushing for that. Since I was re-elected, I've been very firm towards my staff and the CEO. I'm looking into probably getting some economists to have a look at what's around us and what TOs could, potentially, have interests in. At the moment, and for too long, I think we've been below the waistline in terms of how we can get there as a whole. But, as the chair, I can guarantee you that I'll be pushing from day one. Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: I'll ask one more question and then I'll pass on the call. We got a submission from the Local Government Association of the Northern Territory. One of the things they said in their submission was that, although a large number of local government councils in the NT are comprised of either a majority or all First Nations councillors, they are very often sidelined in any decision-making. They're left with having to deal with the infrastructure stuff they have to maintain as a result of other people's decisions. Does the land council have a view on how local government councils also need to work in this—I'm not sure of the word I'm looking for—and how they need to be involved? Mr Ryan : Again, I think that the shire council is the key in the community. They're the eyes and ears of the Northern Territory government. I was a mayor back then. I understand the need to have local government within the community doing the roads, rates and rubbish, but they also need to be better funded. I know we've struggled for many years. I'm sorry; I'm speaking as a former mayor. There was a lack of funding opportunity for the shire councils—even with the infrastructure within the community—just to fix up a pothole. From this small it grew to a metre wide or vice versa. Yes, I think the shire council should be part of economic development opportunities, supporting the traditional owners within the communities. There are so many traditional owners from different parts of community. There are about 30 to 40 different languages spoken in the community. If they have the capacity to support economic development opportunities, they should at least have a greater role in that area also. Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: Thank you. CHAIR: Senator McDonald. Senator McDONALD: Thank you for your terrific submission. We have a shared interest in barge landings and wet season infrastructure, so I was really excited to see your submission. You also touched on people thinking in silos, which I think is one of the biggest detriments to northern Australia, so I'm in furious agreement with you. One of the things with barge landings that I've seen is restrictions in EPBC, the environmental legislation, to allow for safe barge landings to be improved or positioned or dredged or whatever. I don't expect you to have a lot of detail on this, because I'm just raising it in our conversation. But I wonder if that would be something that would also be useful as you're negotiating for greater ownership and greater coordination of the barge. Some of the barge operators tell me that they find it really problematic because of tides and how the facilities are and that it's expensive to stop and wait for tides to change, to get in safely or to come in. I don't know if you have any more information on whether or not you've had any contact with the environment department or how you would better improve that. No? That's fine. But, if we were to move to more structured ownership or agreement over the use of the landings, that would be an important part of how they're made safer and how the access is better throughout the wet season. To your point about having more competition, with more barge operators being able to come in, I suspect that's all part of it. Perhaps that's some homework, to ask you if you'd consider that. Mr Ryan : Having safe barge entering—again, silos. No-one is coordinating this. We need to come as a collective. In terms of remote communities, they need to be the decision-maker. Are they the traditional owners or the stakeholders? The stakeholders are the ones who are going to be affected by food security in the community. I haven't seen any collective decision-maker or communication by anyone. Either it's the department of infrastructure—they need to come to the table also. I've seen barge landings at Wadeye. In order for the barges to deliver the food, it's very windy, very narrow—not safe. In some communities, barge landing is unsafe due to tidal flows also. There needs to be more conversation. We're quite happy to talk to the environment people—and anyone, for that matter. We want to be able to communicate towards our traditional owners. At the moment, there are silos. I don't like silos. We want to be on the same page, open and transparent. Senator McDONALD: Great. That might be something out of this inquiry that we can push for—that coordinated planning around how we get safer, further into the season, more reliable barge landings for food security. I assume, if you have a health emergency or something else, they would air-evacuate out rather than use the barges. Mr Ryan : That's right. Senator McDONALD: But would people go on the barges if they wanted to get out of the community over the wet season? Mr Ryan : I'm not sure. I can't answer you there. Senator McDONALD: I'd never thought about that. I also want to ask you about training for young people. I think your point about the gas industry is really well made. I know in Queensland they're saying that for an unskilled worker, for a young person, who wants to get started to be an assistant drill operator—they earn big money—the expectations of their training level are not as high as for a more skilled operator. Are there any training programs that the Northern Land Council does to start preparing young people to be able to take those jobs up, rather than the gas companies going and finding someone in Darwin or from another state? Mr Ryan : I wish we could be a jack-of-all-trades. Unfortunately, that's not our call. It's uni, so it'll be someone from Charles Darwin University or Batchelor. But, again, I must stress they should be on the ground. They should be talking to the stakeholders to upskill the young people, as well as the school. It needs to start from the school, at boarding or locally. The university needs to come out there and spend their money wisely so that kids can be upskilled. I haven't seen one. Batchelor—they're going below the waistline. CDU—you get the same. I've been very firm on this. They need to be serious about their jobs and upskilling my people, who need to be electricians, air conditioning technicians, mechanics—whatever. I haven't seen anything. It's concerning. Senator McDONALD: So you're not seeing those training organisations come out to the schools. I wonder who they're talking to, then? Mr Ryan : We don't know—silos. Senator McDONALD: That would be something the committee would really like to see—we've got the Batchelor institute on later today—and to understand. If you're not coming and talking to the young people in communities, how do they ever know that's an option that they could be aiming for or progressing towards? Mr Ryan : There was a young kid at Wadeye, a troubled kid. Once they trained him up—I think he's working for one organisation—he loved that job. It's given him the opportunity to do something and earn an income. Now he's quite happy. That's an example of what we should be doing right across the region, because our communities are so disadvantaged and far off. Senator McDONALD: I would be very keen for us to continue talking about this. In Townsville, where I'm from, a lot of kids come through Cowboys House. They come as boarding school kids. But there are a lot of kids left in communities who don't get that opportunity, and we want to make sure that they get that same—particularly if the project's going to be on their country. It would make more sense that they get a go. Mr Ryan : One would think. Senator McDONALD: On this matter of silos: I am incredibly frustrated that we keep talking about northern Australia—opportunity, jobs, health, roads, whatever it might be—and we keep coming back to, 'That's that department's problem,' or, 'That's somebody else's issue.' I think one of the great benefits of having a northern Australia select committee like this is that we can talk across issues. Again, if there's something else that really sticks in your head as, 'Here's an example of how that's not working,' I think the committee would be very happy for you to write another letter or something that would provide some really specific examples of what that might look like. Mr Ryan : That would be awesome. Senator McDONALD: That is potentially the opportunity this committee has to make a real difference rather than be another government committee where we all agree that there's a problem but it's very difficult to find a solution. So I'd really appreciate any specific examples. Mr Ryan : Leading back towards food security and the airline companies, it's costing individual families and lower income earners out of pocket, especially if it is half an hour or 15 minutes away, where there should be a RPT. If there were better competition within the sector—unfortunately there isn't any, because the bigger company overrides the little ones. Economic development opportunities should be given. It's an area where an airline company replaced the competition. I'll give you an example. There's an airline company that, just for an hour's flight, is costing probably 800 bucks or more. Just for a one-hour flight or a 30-minute flight or something—it's appalling. I'll leave it at that. CHAIR: Mr Gosling. Mr GOSLING: I'll jump around a couple of different industries. I know the NLC's not in the business of picking winners, industry-wise, but, obviously, the combination of where different communities are and what their natural assets are in that area would lend itself to different industries. I think we've seen some situations of regional economic growth based on different industries, like out in Nhulunbuy. We'll be going out there tomorrow to talk to stakeholders out there. It'll be interesting to speak with them about what sorts of training opportunities have been out there, what sorts of skills are resident in people now that Rio are handing over assets and how we can take those skills that have been learnt by local people and use them in other industries that are coming. But I was just wondering if you had any thoughts, prior to us going out there, about some of those issues for East Arnhem Land and where the opportunities might be not just for Nhulunbuy but more broadly in eastern Arnhem Land. You've mentioned Wadeye, but my specific question is: is there a barge landing site in Arnhem Land that's probably more in need of upgrade than others? Mr Ryan : I do a lot of travel. I think they're all needing repairs—all of them. I can't be specific, but every single one of them needs a bit of repair. Mr GOSLING: Yes. I understand you don't want to pick winners when there's so much need in different communities. It is interesting that you mentioned traditional owners getting some benefit from mining companies. There are examples of mining companies that are leading the way. One that I know of is Tivan, who have got critical minerals projects, both in the eastern Kimberley and in the centre, where the TOs have received some equity in that company, so they're part of the success of those mines. That will lead to some income from the company if it should be successful, and early indications are pretty good. Have you heard of any other companies that are giving traditional owners equity in the company? Mr Ryan : Not that I can think of, but I would like to see that sort of stuff. That's what I mean. We want to see ownership or proper agreement that is meaningful for the long term, not just the short term. We want to be part owners of the mining companies or the gas companies—or anything, for that matter. We need to be serious about our jobs and about who we represent also. As far as I'm concerned, it never happened, and my people are still in poverty. I went to an APA meeting probably a couple of weeks back. I was pretty firm to the board, the chair and the CEOs about ownership. It's about time we make a difference as a collective, or else we're all in the wrong job. Mr GOSLING: Yes. I'm just suggesting that you might want to use that example of Tivan, because it's not as if it can't be done. Mr Ryan : Yes, that's right. Mr GOSLING: There's a company that is doing it. Royalties are one thing, but, as you say, having a real stake in the success of a project is a win-win for everyone, and therefore traditional owners and their families can benefit from the use of country. Tourism is why I came to the Territory. We lived in country Victoria and our parents took us out of school and took us north to see what Australia's about, and that's where I fell in love with the Northern Territory. You go to beautiful places all the way up the track, from Kata Tjuta north through places. There are particular places we fell in love with, like Mataranka, Douglas Hot Springs and Elliott. There's Edith Falls there. There's beautiful Litchfield. I was wondering whether, in your role, you see that there's more that can be done with tourism in the Northern Territory and whether that's seen as an emerging industry where more can be done. Tourism is not a new industry, but, with some more support, could it be an emerging industry where people living on country can actually earn an income and it can lead to regional economic development? Mr Ryan : That's right. Tourism is probably—we want to be able to share our culture, and I think tourism is a way of sharing our culture. It can be a big investment in tourism, but the government need to work with the traditional owners. In the West Arnhem, Jabiru or Kakadu region, there are some traditional owners having ownership of tour buses, but they need to be greater in decision-making in terms of all areas. It is one of the areas that we want to be part of. I've heard firsthand from traditional owners saying, 'We want to be part of tourism, and we want to engage with the tourism company.' Mr GOSLING: There's an example recently out at Jim Jim Falls and Twin Falls. The roads need upgrading and the traditional owners out there have asked for that support. Parks Australia are getting that work done—I'm not asking you to give an opinion on that particular project—but there's this tension because the tourism season is the same as the season where you can get infrastructure development done, because it's not raining, and we can make roads better, as an example. The traditional owners out there are thinking to the future in getting that road situation fixed up. There are other places around the Territory where there seems to be some frustration because natural assets, like, say, the Douglas Hot Springs, remain closed, and it's not clear, with the stovepipes, whether people are talking to each other to try and get places like that open. Whose responsibility is it to move forward with decisions that see natural assets opened up for the benefit of local communities? How can we get across those stovepipes of information about a way forward? Mr Ryan : You've got director boards—through them and traditional owners. You've got a board of management. I'm not in the parks, but it would be good if they worked together in terms of finding the solution rather than problems. You're dead right. It should be that just before the dry season they come in and do the roads—done. We, as traditional owners—and I, as the chair—want to make sure that traditional owners are being spoken to appropriately so that they understand what's happening. Mr GOSLING: I think Kakadu is a good example of where those conversations are happening and the infrastructure is being fixed in order to allow the emerging tourism industry to thrive, but then we see other situations around the Northern Territory where it's not clear where there's a path forward and whether there's any conversation or mechanism that might help that occur. Mr Ryan : I'm not in the industry and I can't answer that; sorry. Mr GOSLING: Thanks. CHAIR: Can I go, Senator Allman-Payne, because I've got a whole—is that alright? Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: Yes. I've got a question at the end, if there's time left. CHAIR: Thank you for the NLC submission. I want to go to NLC's role. In terms of the recommendations that you've put in your submission, you said that a structured head lease model warrants consideration by the Northern Territory government. Where is the Northern Land Council and its statutory role in terms of facilitating the head lease conversation? We're talking about a head lease into the intertidal zone. Anyone who understands ALRA would know that that then enters into some contentious areas. In your submission you were saying that you would grant the Northern Territory government a head lease over relevant barge landings and the associated infrastructure footprint, and then those lease payments would flow to traditional owners. You're saying to do a head lease would provide tenure certainty for investment. So, for anyone who wanted to come into an Aboriginal community and do an emerging industry, the head lease would open up certainty. Where are the conversations? This is Northern Land Council's responsibility. Where are the conversations between NLC and the relevant Northern Territory government in terms of doing the head leases for barge landings? Mr Ryan : Again, with respect to the chair, it's still in conversation. I'll take that on board. Again, I think we've got to get that right in terms of the decision-making with the right traditional owners. CHAIR: Can I get you to take on notice if Northern Land Council can provide to this committee where conversations or discussions are at between traditional owners within that intertidal zone for head leases over the relevant barge landing and associated infrastructure footprint, particularly given the Northern Land Council submission was pretty strong in terms of making sure that that head lease was put in place. Mr Ryan : Yes. CHAIR: Where is NLC when we talk about emerging industries in our remote communities, whether it's critical minerals, whether it's setting up a tourism industry or whether it's setting up the Caring for Country program, like in Kabulwarnamyo, which has a very strong Caring for Country program with rangers and has been able to get commercial benefit from the program that they run there? Are you able to provide—either now or on notice—how many section 19s, or land use agreements for remote communities, the Northern Land Council has undertaken that will enable emerging industries to happen? You'll take that one on notice as well? Mr Ryan : Yes. CHAIR: Thank you. This is my last one. With the inland connectivity, when you talk about roads and access into communities, all roads on Aboriginal land at the moment are private. Has Northern Land Council had any conversations with traditional owners in terms of opening up the road corridors going into communities and allowing those road corridors to become public rather than private access roads to enable emerging industries to happen in those communities? Have you talked about connectivity? We've had conversations before. It is a contentious issue. Mr Ryan : It is. CHAIR: If we talk about how we want communities to be opened up and we want communities to have industries, the biggest impediment people often say for communities is that they are private access roads and there is an impediment in terms of having access to those communities. So what is Northern Land Council's role in terms of those conversations under ALRA opening up those road corridors? You can take that on notice. We can write those questions, and it would be good to get those answers. Mr Ryan : Again, I will take it on notice. Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: Mr Ryan, I have a follow-up question. The Northern Land Council's submission talks about climate risk and systemic fragility. It says: Climate change is a force multiplier for existing vulnerabilities. Northern Australia is experiencing more intense rainfall events, higher peak flooding, and increased cyclone intensity. Coastal erosion and storm surge risks also threaten marine infrastructure itself. I'm interested in your comments earlier about industry. You talked about the gas industry, for example. We know that's one of the industries that's contributing to climate change. One of the other submitters has noted the evidence that basically the whole of northern Australia will become uninhabitable at 2.5 degrees of warming. I'm interested as to whether the land council has a view or a preference for industries that aren't contributing to that climate risk—for example, critical minerals as opposed to gas, which is actually going to make that worse. CHAIR: Mr Ryan, if you want to, you can take that question on notice. After I sum up, when we finish, we'll go through each of the questions that have been taken on notice. Northern Land Council will be asked to respond within two weeks of getting those questions, if Senator Allman-Payne is happy for it to be taken on notice. Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: I am happy for it to be taken on notice. Just to give some context as to why I'm asking, we have other submitters who are saying that the Northern Territory is one of the last places left on the planet that has pristine waterways, pristine savannahs et cetera. I think it's really important to get the view of the council and traditional owners on what you think in relation to that question. So that's why. If you could take it on notice, I'd be very grateful. Mr Ryan : I'll take that on notice and probably just add a small comment that there are good views and bad views. I don't want to say anything that will contradict what is said here today. Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: That's fine. Mr Ryan : I'll take that on notice. Senator McDONALD: I've been thinking more about how there is a long-term benefit to communities and to traditional owners so we see communities that aren't in poverty and are thriving. I'm wondering about the point you made before about how you have a portion of ownership or inclusion in those projects. I went to Canada for the big mining conference a couple of years ago, and they talked about the First Nations funds they use there to develop infrastructure so there is that genuine partnership. Are there other places around the world where you have seen examples of how that's worked well or that we could be looking at in Australia? Mr Ryan : First Nations people in Canada are a great example, and we want to learn from them. At the moment, I don't see any other way. We want to go to that pathway. We want to be more influential in terms of economic development. At the moment, there's no such thing. But I'm always firm about the opportunities that are there, so let's grab them while we can. Senator McDONALD: To my mind, success, for those of us who care about our northern communities, is long-term generational benefits and seeing communities come out of poverty. Mr Ryan : That's right. Senator McDONALD: I don't know, but perhaps there's a little bit more work we could do in that regard about thinking about what other examples there are from around the world. Obviously, not everybody's getting it right, but some places seem to be getting it a bit more right than others. If we have great projects like the Beetaloo, like data centres, like whatever it might be, how does the benefit stay in your communities, not just all fly off into other parts of the world? Mr Ryan : Coming in a bit late before the SunCable, I've been very firm in terms of the economic opportunities for my people, not just the jobs. I'm done with the jobs. As part of that ownership, we want to be able to purchase. At the moment, I think probably 99 per cent are owned by non-Indigenous people. We want to be able to say, 'Hey, that's our pastoralist. That's our cattle station,' or anything, for that matter. At the moment, I don't see any Indigenous people owning the Casuarina, for instance. We want to be able to be influential within the community also. So far, we still aren't here, unfortunately. We want to do better. I've been very firm on that. Senator McDONALD: My observation may be right or wrong, but getting a royalty stream, getting a cash flow, is handy. But if it doesn't come with more skills, more Aboriginal people who are educated into those roles to then be making their own decisions and their own direction, then it's still somebody else's project, isn't it? It is still for somebody else's benefit. Mr Ryan : That's right. Senator McDONALD: You still have communities that might have more money but they're not actually wealthier in terms of capacity and purpose and health outcomes. To my mind, money's not always the answer if it's not spent in a way that develops the outcomes for the families. Mr Ryan : That's right. If you look at the education system, it's appalling. It's dumbing our children. Therefore, they're not stepping up into the roles that we're sitting in here. It should be revealed that in the Northern Territory they're dumbing our children right now. Indigenous people in the remote communities should be able to be taught as any other Australians right across Australia. Senator McDONALD: Do you think there's a difference in the education system in communities? Mr Ryan : There is—trust me. Senator McDONALD: That's terrible. Mr Ryan : It is terrible. It's frustrating. The education system should be overhauled and should be delivered by the local people in the communities. The curriculum should be up to an Australian standard. At the moment, I don't see that happening. I'm quite privileged because I had that but now it's gone for probably years 5 or 6. It's appalling. Senator McDONALD: Yes, we've both benefited from an education that's allowed us to have choices and to take on leadership roles. I grew up on a cattle station, so mine was School of the Air and correspondence. It doesn't always have to be a big flash school. It's just a system that works for where you are. I was not aware of that. It's a terrible thing to hear that they're not getting the same opportunity. As this committee has gone around Australia, one of the things that has been raised is attendance rates. We were in Broome, and I was asking one of the traditional owners what the attendance rate was. I think 26 per cent of kids were going to school. I said, 'Well, why do you think that is?' And they said, 'Well, because their parents didn't see a benefit of going to school, so now why would they send their kids to school?' Anyway, if it were easy to solve, it would be solved. Do you have a view on attendance? Mr Ryan : I do. From experience, growing up in the remote communities, I've seen working parents under the old CDP and CDEP. It was a great program in the communities. It provided job opportunities within the communities, so every parent worked. Therefore kids could get a feed, they could afford to buy clothing, they could afford to buy cars and they could afford to travel from community to community. Since that has gone, they are back to square one. I've seen people doing drugs just to support their families—everyone. And I'm being serious and honest here. If the program were to be still running today, there'd be working parents, the kids would still be going to school—healthier, happier. Ever since that was demolished, we are back to square one. We have to support our families. They don't understand the system. We have to re-educate them. It's a failing system. Every time, it works, and they cut off the legs. ATSIC was working for Indigenous people, and rather than stop the whole of ATSIC, they should have sacked individual people, not the whole system. The system was working for Indigenous people. Again, we're back to square one. If you have good working parents, a good income, you have healthy children. Senator McDONALD: Yes. Kids learn by example, don't they? Mr Ryan : That's right. Senator McDONALD: They learn by what they see. Mr Ryan : We had a good curriculum back then—a high standard—but nothing anymore. Senator McDONALD: Thank you. Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: I agree with you, Mr Ryan. I'm a former teacher, and I think school is no longer engaging for students or teachers, and it doesn't meet the needs of the kids. Mr Ryan : From experience, I had to send my kids away from the community to be educated. All my kids are educated now. I had no confidence in the local school, because of the curriculum—the lower-level standard of education; it should be of a high standard. CHAIR: If there are no further questions, I'll go back to the questions on notice that you agreed to take on. Perhaps I could add a further one. In terms of Aboriginal Investment NT, what is the Northern Land Council's role? And how much of that investment has come out of AINT and investment into remote Aboriginal communities? Are you able to take that on notice? Mr Ryan : I can. CHAIR: We get access to IBA and ILSC, but it would be good, because I know that the four land councils are shareholders in AINT and that substantial money is invested in AINT. How much of that investment has flowed to remote Aboriginal communities in terms of infrastructure? Perhaps that could be taken on notice. Mr Ryan : Yes. Will do. CHAIR: There are three other questions. And we'll make that clear, in terms of barge landings, the section 19 tenures and the ILUAs. We'll write to you. There are two others. One of the questions on notice—Mr Gosling, you had— Mr GOSLING: Yes—on notice—I had a question in terms of breaking down those silos and getting people to talk to each other. What does the NT government need to do to facilitate opportunities, specifically to open up Douglas Hot Springs? I'm trying to get an understanding of how we can open that tourism opportunity up. Is it an agreement between the NT government and the local traditional owners? Is that what is needed to open up that asset for the benefit of the broader community, or is there some other mechanism that the NLC recommends to facilitate these tourism opportunities for local communities? Mr Ryan : I'll take that on notice. Mr GOSLING: Thank you. CHAIR: And then the fourth one—I'll just read this out—is that the NLC submission makes reference to the impact of climate change, stating that climate change is a force multiplier in existing vulnerabilities. Given this is the case and that other submitters to the inquiry have noted that most of northern Australia will be uninhabitable at 2.7 degrees of warming, does the Northern Land Council have a view on whether industries such as the gas industry should be able to expand in the Northern Territory given their contributions to climate change? Does the Northern Land Council have a preference for development that conserves country and focuses on renewable energy, critical minerals et cetera? So that'll go to you. We'll outline all of these questions and we'll get them to you as early as we can to then get a response back from the Northern Land Council. I thank you for your evidence today and for coming. The committee has agreed that any responses to questions on notice should be provided within two weeks of you receiving a copy of the Hansard transcript. Going on what the secretary just told me, we should be getting those questions on notice to you over the next couple of days. Then can we get those responses back within two weeks so that the committee can do its deliberation. Certainly, on behalf of the committee, thank you for coming, Matty. Proceedings suspended from 09:46 to 10:48 .