CHAFER, Mr Anthony (Tony), Chief Executive Officer, Cambridge Gulf Ltd CHAIR: Welcome. I understand that information on parliamentary privilege and the protection of witnesses giving evidence to committees has been provided to you. You've probably appeared before the committee before. I now invite you to make a short opening statement. At the conclusion of any remarks, I'll invite members of the committee to ask questions. Mr Chafer : Cambridge Gulf Ltd has quite a broad remit across northern Australia. We're a local Kununurra company, an east Kimberley company. We lease and operate the Port of Wyndham. We have a fuel import terminal, one of the very few independent fuel import terminals left in the country. We also have a hotel that we're building over there, the Cambridge. It's coming along nicely. We'll be very happy when that's finished. Outside of the east Kimberley, we have a joint venture in Gove with the Rirratjingu Aboriginal Corporation. That's been going for about 13 years or so. We import 50 million litres of diesel a year into Gove. There's another three years of doing that contract, until the mining stops. We also have a joint venture with Knala Services, an Indigenous business in Weipa, where we distribute about 100 million litres of fuel a year around the Rio Tinto mine sites and other third parties. We have an interest in expanding into similar arrangements in the west Kimberley and as far south as Esperance, as well as some other North Queensland spots and South Australia. Those developments are coming along quite nicely. I'm also the deputy shire president, so I can also talk about some issues that the shire faces. I also act as a director of Gelganyem Trust, who are the traditional owners of the Argyle diamond mine, which is going through the final stages of closure. I also sit on the board of the East Kimberley Chamber of Commerce and Industry. Senator STERLE: What do you do in your spare time! Mr Chafer : I like to go fishing. CHAIR: Thank you, Mr Chafer. I now ask committee members if they've got any questions. Senator Sterle Senator STERLE: Tony, thank you very much for your time, and thank Jill, over at the port. That was a very informative tour. It was great to see how that's been operating, because we all see Wyndham. We all see the port, but we don't know what goes on, so thank you very much for that. We're talking about emerging industries and that sort of stuff through the Kimberley. I didn't realise Cambridge had such a huge footprint across the top of Australia. I'm very keen to hear what you're doing in the west Kimberley at a later time or maybe part of this hearing, if you're able to talk to it. Let me just put this to you, as someone who has haunted the Kimberley for two-thirds of my life. How the heck do you have fuel $1 a litre cheaper at your facility than your competitors in town? I'm going to do a post on my Instagram that goes to 12,000 truck drivers, because I am absolutely wrapped in what you're doing here. Mr Chafer : I'd start by saying that all of our shareholders either live or have lived in the east Kimberley and are very community oriented. A lot of what we actually do from a business perspective isn't just about making money for our shareholders; it's about delivering good outcomes for the communities we work in. That's why we like to do the things we do in Gove, in Weipa and in other areas with the Indigenous businesses and Indigenous corporations. We see that the best way of closing the gap is to get Indigenous business up and running and get Indigenous people into employment. It's no different here in our community in Kununurra or in the east Kimberley. We were able to purchase some fuel quite cheaply before the issue in the Middle East occurred. We took the opportunity, rather than put our prices up, to provide our community with the benefit of that cheap fuel. A lot of our community live below the poverty line, and we didn't think it would be fair for a company like ours to profit off that based on the fact that we did have cheap fuel in our terminal. So we passed that benefit onto the community. Senator STERLE: Congratulations. This is huge. You may have missed earlier on how we were talking up—and you've been part of this too with your other hat on as the deputy shire president—the four Kimberley shires. I've said two years because time flies when you're having fun, particularly in this job. It's the been the last four or five years, as the shire president pulled me up and corrected me on. It was on how you've worked closely, come into Canberra and represented a one-Kimberley position, which has been absolutely magnificent. Of course part of that was the hard work that you guys collectively did with the RDAs to bring back and convince the government to bring back the first point of entry. We have a long way to go, and we thank you for all you ran through with us yesterday. We absolutely understand up the front here that, if we can get that going even quicker, it would be even better, so the growers can enjoy some of those gains from this year's harvest for the cotton. The state government has put a lot of money in, and the feds have ticked off on the process, but did we hear you correctly when DAFF said that, as part of the infrastructure there—this is for the DAFF officers that come onto your port, and we know that there have been 120-odd ship movements, so they're there regularly but not every day—they needed six showers and a gym? Did we hear that right or were you just playing with us? Mr Chafer : That's certainly in the design. That's a standard design for a DAFF facility. We've managed to reduce the requirements—when I say 'we', working through the Kimberley Ports Authority—to a more manageable level. I think the issue is that they have one standard design for a facility, no matter where it is, so the same facility at the Melbourne port should apply in the country. We say, 'Look, it doesn't have to be the same.' We don't need kennels for dogs. We don't need gymnasiums for DAFF employees. We just need somewhere they can do their paperwork at the end of the day, have a shower and go to the bathroom. Senator STERLE: Has that been accepted as part of the design so that we can get moving? Mr Chafer : Yes. We're still trying to reduce the level of requirements within the office area because it's simply not needed. We managed to build an office in that nice big office and workshop that I showed you over there. We built that about six or seven years ago ourselves for a little over $2 million. We don't think we need an office for DAFF employees to use valued at $5 million within the port area. We can do something a lot more affordable and a lot more appropriate. We'll just keep working with the Kimberley Ports Authority to try and make sure the budget is spent on the actual things that are needed for biosecurity protection purposes. Senator STERLE: Brilliant. We can put that one to bed. That's all finished. We know, and everyone up here in the north of Australia knows, that, what you get for $14 million in Perth or Melbourne, you won't get anything near that in this part of the world because of the costs. What do we need to do? Mr Chafer : Obviously, we need to get that infrastructure in as quickly as we possibly can. We've got a very good, proactive landlord in the Kimberley Ports Authority who is working to push that timeline along and get the tenders out as quickly as possible and get as many local businesses involved as we possibly can, for two reasons: to keep the costs down and to deliver a far quicker project. Those guys are already here and capable of doing most of the work, so we need to get that done as quickly as we can. The big issue we have facing us is that we're not going to have it done in time for the 2026 harvest. That was never going to be the case, but we were hoping to use the non-FPOE process for the 2026 harvest. But we don't think we're going to have sufficient infrastructure in place for us to put our hands on our heart and say that we can deal with any biosecurity threat. We are working with the state government to see if we can get some sort of freight equalisation subsidy in place. At the moment, the containers need to go to the Darwin port to get cleared before they come to us, which adds about US$600,000 per container to the cost of exporting a container from here, so we're asking the state if they could perhaps take care of that additional cost for us. It's only for 850 containers at most for the year, so that's a cost of about A$750,000. The big driver for that is that, if the exporters or markets that aren't local East Kimberley people—these are people that buy cotton and ship it all around the world, so they've got no interest in the East Kimberley—can find a cheaper option like, say, the Darwin port, they can start a logistics arrangement there. Having been involved in logistics yourself, you'll understand it will be very difficult to unwind that in future years. So it will be a very sad outcome if we lose East Kimberley trade because the Darwin port, for other reasons, decides to offer more competitive rates. I'll explain those other reasons—and this is my opinion only. I believe the Darwin port is offering very unsustainable rates to go through that port to build up the trade because they're very aware that the Commonwealth is going to cancel their lease and you will get more compensation— Senator STERLE: Is that breaking news? Marion and I have been told that yet. Mr Chafer : You'll get more compensation if you have more trade going through the port, so I suspect that's the aim of the Darwin port. In order to compete with that, we need to compete on a fair playing field, so we need to take that cost of actually clearing those containers at another port out of the equation so that we can offer the market the best price through Wyndham. Senator STERLE: The problem is bigger than that, Tony. What you and your people made clear yesterday when you presented to us is that not only is there a $600 extra cost for each container going through Darwin Port, but then there was a knock-on effect that would affect the gin here. Did you mention something about the Katherine gin part of that in Darwin Port? Mr Chafer : Yes. Katherine gin is trying to convince some of the growers here to actually send their modules up to Katherine for ginning. The Katherine gin or part of it, as I understand it, is facing some real troubles this year because it's dry-land cotton. Unlike our irrigated cotton, they're never quite sure what yield they're going to get. I believe the yields, typically, have been quite low, but this year they've been subjected to a very big flood up there as well. I think a lot of their cotton has drowned, and also, because the yields or the rewards or returns for growers last year was so bad, a lot of them have returned to their normal crops, so there's not so much cotton. I'm hearing maybe only 10,000 hours worth of production. That's not going to keep that gin going. It's a privately owned gin, so I guess the person that owns that can afford to heavily discount to try and attract a few more modules of cotton through so he can enable the gin to survive for another year and until, hopefully, all of the trade is directed through the Northern Territory, if we're not careful. Senator STERLE: Coming back to my last question, as you said, the cost of the freighting through the Darwin port is about $750,000. In normal layman's terms, that's a lot of money, but, with the size of the problem that can be resolved to keep the circle moving here in Kununurra, it's a drop in the ocean, isn't it? Mr Chafer : It is. The other thing I'd add to it— Senator STERLE: Not to the growers. Mr Chafer : No. To the government. We've been through quite a decline in trade through the port. People in Canberra don't typically understand that Wyndham has a port, for a start, and how busy it can be. In three years out of those last 15 years, we've come very close to our trade in Darwin in terms of tonnage in and out. The port can get quite busy, but the last few years have been very quiet because the Australian nickel industry died. We lost nickel. We used to export crude oil out of Wyndham, but that came from the West Kimberley. When the Fitzroy Bridge went down, we had two years without any wet season crude coming over, so they just couldn't afford to stay in business. So we've lost a fair bit of trade, and we're just going through a rebuild process, and we're just getting our team back together or new team members. The importance of that is 70 to 80 per cent of our employees in Wyndham at the port are Indigenous. I don't think any private industry would have that kind of record. I'm talking from foreman right down to every trade. One of our bulldozer drivers on the barges over there is a young Indigenous lady. She's a very good bulldozer operator. We take great pride in that and in the fact that not only have we offered those jobs but many of our people that we've employed have been from a very low skill base, and now we have them operating cranes on ships, we have them driving our pilot boat, we have them driving heavy machinery, and we have them in charge of gangs. It's a really good story, and the last thing we need to do in this rebuild process is lose a trade. Senator STERLE: Absolutely. CHAIR: What was that percentage again? Mr Chafer : 70 to 80 per cent. CHAIR: That's great. Senator Smith? Senator DEAN SMITH: With your deputy-shire-president hat on, can you talk to us or share with us some details about the issues around land availability across the shire and how those issues might be able to be resolved and also the consequences of poor land availability on the development of the shire? Mr Chafer : Maybe I'll touch on, firstly, the land that is available that hasn't been developed, because there's plenty of it. The people that were in my car yesterday, as we drove down the main residential street of Wyndham, saw a lot of empty, vacant housing blocks there. This, I believe, will go a long way to solving a significant part of the housing crisis in country WA and probably country everywhere in Australia— CHAIR: Sorry, are they serviced? Mr Chafer : Fully serviced and had houses on them. We have state government agencies that are in charge of housing. They get a government or Homeswest house that they maintain to a certain level. Then the standards change, and the house that they have there no longer meets those requirements. So their approach is then to knock that house down and build another house. That whole process costs them about a million dollars. We had a discussion about that when we had the state budget released here last year, and we said: 'Look, that's a crazy approach. Those houses might not meet your standard, but a young couple in this town that really wants to get into the real estate market will buy that house tomorrow. Rather than knocking them down, you've got all these other vacant blocks that are fully serviced. Offer that to the market. You'll save yourself immediately $100,000 from not having to demolish a house, and you'll get probably $400,000 for the house, so you're going to be half a million dollars in front. Instead of building 10 houses for $10 million, you can build 20. You can double the bang for your buck, and you can also help people who can't afford to get into the real estate market—can't buy a million-dollar house—to buy a very, very affordable old fixer-upper house that they'd be happy to put some time and energy into.' I would suggest that you've got lots of state agencies around the country that are doing exactly the same. If the government took a bit of an interest in getting some stats on it, I think you could, certainly in remote and regional towns, go a long way to relieving some of the housing issues. So that's one issue. I guess the other issue we have, as I think the shire president and CEO mentioned, is that the Water Corporation of Western Australia obviously control the wastewater treatment works, the sewerage systems and the water supplies, and they can be either a constraint on, or an enabler of, housing development. Now, we've got a subdivision of just under 30 blocks in Kununurra ready to go. All the services are laid in the ground. They don't have a sewage pump station. So our minister said: 'We'll give the $8 million to build that. That's going in the budget, to build that sewage station.' That would have brought those blocks on immediately. The Water Corporation came out and said, 'Well, actually, our wastewater treatment plants are over their designed limitations, so we can't have any more properties connect to the wastewater treatment works in Kununurra or Wyndham.' Now, I'm very familiar with the way they measure that because I used to work in an agency many, many years ago. I got on to their licensing site and had a look. Both of those sites are running at about 70 per cent of their design capacity, so there's plenty of capacity there. I don't know why they're not saying that and not allowing us to actually connect these properties to the sewers so we can actually allow them to be developed. I really don't know. CHAIR: To meet the 100 per cent instead of the 70— Mr Chafer : Yes. CHAIR: Senator Smith. Senator DEAN SMITH: Let's fast forward to the present, the here and now. What lessons have you learnt as a result of the current Middle East conflict? What does the fuel security situation look like for residents and businesses across the Kimberley, and is there anything about the business structure, the operating structure, of Cambridge Gulf that has better prepared you and the region for this current Middle East conflict? Mr Chafer : I guess the one thing that I've learnt is that uncertainty is probably the word. Every time you think you're taking a step forward, you've got to step backwards. For us, the issue is about price, not security. We have a longstanding arrangement with one of the biggest suppliers bringing fuel into the country, and they've been very, very clear to us that there are no issues. There are no issues with fuel security. We only ever book two ships in advance. We've got a ship coming in on Thursday, and the next ship we have booked is at the end of May. Those dates are set in concrete. That's for here and for Gove. We do both sites. We have tentative ships booked for June. As of next week, we will firm those ships up for June because that's the way we operate. We also have other supplies, other vessels, coming into Australian waters that we can bring into Wyndham if we wanted to get a top-up—without issue. I wish there were something—actually, I should check my phone— Senator DEAN SMITH: You're waiting for an announcement, aren't you? Mr Chafer : I'm waiting for an announcement. Senator DEAN SMITH: That we weren't invited to! Mr Chafer : I'm told it will come today. Senator DEAN SMITH: At Wyndham? Mr Chafer : And, when it does come today, it's going to further enhance the security of fuel in the East Kimberley. I will let you know as soon as it's out. What I can tell you now is that we've got a facility there with 18 million litres of storage and we use about six million litres of it. That's all we need because we get a monthly shipment. Senator DEAN SMITH: You use six million litres a month? Mr Chafer : We use six million litres of the storage. Most times we've only got about six. It might go up to about eight, but there's mainly about six million litres in there at any one time. CHAIR: That's for storage. Mr Chafer : For storage, yes. We're working on a strategy to fill that fuel farm up very quickly. We don't have the financial capacity to go and buy a cargo that big right now ourselves, and we would not want to wear the risk of buying a cargo that big because when the market falls we'll be sitting on a whole bunch of fuel that is unaffordable for anyone. All I can say is that we're working on a strategy to actually address that and I'm hoping we'll have an announcement on that very soon. Senator DEAN SMITH: I think it's been made. Mr Chafer : Has it? Senator DEAN SMITH: Yes. But I'll let you resort to your phone. CHAIR: The WA government says—you should say it, Senator Smith. Senator DEAN SMITH: There's a deal between the WA government and Cambridge Gulf, I think, to utilise that excess storage capability. Mr Chafer : Nice. Yes. Senator DEAN SMITH: That will provide fuel security for residents and businesses across, certainly, the East Kimberley. But is it true to say, across the— Mr Chafer : Much broader than that. Yes, I'm very pleased about that. What I can say, now that the announcement is out, is that we've got another ship coming in at the end of April with four million litres on it. We were able to organise that at short notice, so I'm very, very excited about that. CHAIR: Is that for both Western Australia and Gove, did you say? Mr Chafer : Gove is fine. There's sufficient fuel going into Gove regularly enough. They don't have a broader market. They're constrained by the road access, and, unfortunately, they've got a massive amount of storage there. We worked with the company 11 years ago to try get them to utilise some of that storage for diesel—then they wouldn't have a problem. They've got 220 million litres of storage sitting empty there. Anyway, that's another story. CHAIR: Couldn't they fix it up? Senator DEAN SMITH: The principle here is that, where there is excess storage capability, the state government has decided to acquire fuel, in this case diesel, and store it in that excess physical capacity. Mr Chafer : Yes. We've already facilitated the transport of fuel as far south as Geraldton through that process because some of the smaller independents don't have access to a reasonable allotment. We've got a goldmine down that way, in the midwest, that we're keeping going with fuel out of Wyndham. And we've got some customers in Geraldton that are happy to send road trains up to us. Senator DEAN SMITH: The media announcement says that the diesel will be owned by the state government. Mr Chafer : Yes. Senator DEAN SMITH: Are you charging the state government a fee for the storage? Mr Chafer : Zero dollars. We've made the storage available for them. All we insist on is that they pay for the cost of the oil and the cost of actually bringing it up and putting it into the tanks. We'll charge them a terminal throughput charge when we remove the oil. That's 2.1c a litre. That's the cost of operating the terminal. There are no margins or profit built into that; we've offered it up for free. But we will help facilitate and move that fuel for them to areas that need it in the state. Senator DEAN SMITH: Hmm. Is there anything about your ownership structure or your business model that allows you to facilitate that sort of arrangement with the state government which may inhibit others with different business structures doing the same? Mr Chafer : As I said, we're a public, unlisted company. We've got, say, 68 shareholders. All of them either live, or have lived, in the East Kimberley. We've got a community where all of our businesses need to meet a community need, even our hotel. We're building that because there's not enough accommodation here. We strive to do what we can for our community, and our board of directors are very happy to give us the largesse to move very, very quickly. So we can make a decision in a matter of minutes, whereas other companies might have to go through a whole process. I'll give you an example of that. We had crude oil from Buru Energy being exported out of Wyndham, and this was in the very old days of the Broome port, before the Kimberley Ports Authority. They were in negotiations with Broome for two years to try and get their crude exported out of there, and someone mentioned Wyndham, and they said, 'Don't be crazy.' So I took a phone call and I said, 'Come up when you can,' and they said: 'We've got a plane. We'll be there right now.' So they came up, and I showed them our terminal, and within one hour we had an agreement for them to store crude oil in our terminal, and within five months they were exporting crude out of Wyndham. So we can do things very quickly. Senator STERLE: We should put you in biodiversity; that department might get things moving—oops! CHAIR: Do you have any questions, Senator Sterle? Senator STERLE: No, I'm just texting the Premier to say: 'What a great job. Well done.' You've caught me out, Chair! Mr Chafer : He's done a wonderful job. CHAIR: It's a great announcement. Mr Chafer : It is, and I'm glad it came up as I'm sitting here, because I wasn't able to say anything yesterday. Senator DEAN SMITH: I feel like I was invited! Mr Chafer : I've got one other thing I'd like to say about housing. We've got a fantastic mine about to be developed here. That's the Boab Metals lead and silver mine. It is 35 minutes from Kununurra, so it's one of those great community-building opportunities where every person that will work in that mine can live in town rather than have a FIFO arrangement, and that's exactly what they want to do. They are going to be challenged with finding accommodation for all of those people. It's going to be a real challenge. So there's going to have to be some kind of FIFO arrangement until we can get the accommodation here in town. We are fortunate that a lot of our East Kimberley residents actually moved out of town, when the Argyle diamond mine and the nickel mine closed, to find mining work elsewhere. I'm sure that some of those people will come back to work in their community and take advantage of getting mining wages and being home every night for dinner. CHAIR: You were saying that, in terms of land availability, between 70 and 80 per cent of land is available in Kununurra. Is that right? I don't want to misquote. I'm just trying to get clarity. Mr Chafer : Yes. There are a lot of vacant housing blocks available in Kununurra— CHAIR: So vacant housing blocks but— Mr Chafer : Not the land to develop more. CHAIR: But, if you had capacity for 70 to 80 per cent, the government could develop those lots, and then that would help reduce the FIFO. Mr Chafer : Yes. Essentially, what the state government's done in many towns through country WA is—rather than build houses for their employees, which always used to be the case—use the real estate market. They're using private investors to build houses. So houses that would normally be available for other people to rent are now being rented by government agencies. What we'd like to see turned around is the government to go back to the position where they're building their own houses for their own employees and to leave the real estate market for private industry and, I guess, the residents of the Kimberley. CHAIR: Senator Smith or Senator Sterle? Senator STERLE: No, there were a very intense couple of hours yesterday, which was fantastic. CHAIR: I'm sorry I missed that, but both you and Senator Smith will do a great report, no doubt, to the committee. Mr Chafer : I'll just add one more thing about access; I guess it is improving. But this year, again, we were cut off from both ends. We were cut off from the north and cut off from the south. So we've still got a lot more work to do in that space. CHAIR: Where was it cut off coming into Kununurra? Mr Chafer : It was cut off south of Fitzroy, I believe. Obviously, Katherine was cut off as well. I believe we were down to one day's jet storage in the East Kimberley, but I believe they were able to get some jet up. We don't trade in jet; we just trade in diesel. They were able to get some jet up from south; they normally get it from Darwin. If we had gone completely through that one-day stock, then we would have had no flights in here either. Senator DEAN SMITH: When we think about road networks and the vulnerability of the single road across the Kimberley, is the answer about improving the strength and resistance of the existing road, or is the answer in identifying alternative routes so that, if the main route is taken out, the alternative route is utilised, meaning, perhaps, that the alternative route may not be built to the same standard as the major route? Mr Chafer : A bit of both, really. The alternative route that we were working on very hard for the four shires was the Tanami Road. When the Tanami Road's completely sealed, when the Tanami is open, Kununurra is closer to Adelaide by road than it is to Perth. That would make a significant difference for us. We've got some biosecurity issues to overcome. Obviously, we're very strict on biosecurity, particularly in the East Kimberley, but there are ways of getting around that with Coles—we don't have a Woolworths—in the way they do their warehousing, making sure that what comes into here via a route other than Perth is already cleared in Adelaide before it leaves. Senator STERLE: That shouldn't be hard. Can I ask a question of you with your with your wharf hat on? The mining mobs have been making a little bit of noise in Canberra around the mines south of Halls Creek—you know, the essential mineral stuff. I'm not as close to the mining industry as maybe Senator Smith is. I'm not being rude; I was just blue with them when I was the shadow minister for transport and road safety. They've been making a fair bit of noise around the road as important. Is that the Tanami they're talking about, or are they talking about the Great Northern as well? Mr Chafer : No, that's the Tanami. Senator STERLE: Just the Tanami? Okay. Mr Chafer : The great thing when you build an arterial road like the Tanami is that all of those mines that were just a thought in someone's mind become a reality, because then they can get access. And not just the mining industry but the cattle stations along there as well. Many of them are Indigenous owned. They've all of a sudden got 365-day access to an export port. It makes a big difference to whether they're viable or just a dream. Senator STERLE: You were talking earlier on about the new mine coming on stream. That's the one next to the Ridges? Mr Chafer : No, this in the Ord irrigation area, actually. It's just before the Northern Territory border. If you go out along into stage 2, past Hoochery and into the stage 2 area just before you get to the Northern Territory border. Senator STERLE: Near Keep River? Mr Chafer : Near the Keep River, yes. We've got another mine that has major project status, Tivan's fluorite mine, which is coming along very nicely as well. That's about 140 kays south of here, and 140 kays south of Wyndham as well. We're really looking forward to that project coming on stream. That's going to be another great employment opportunity for people in the East Kimberley. Senator STERLE: Wonderful. Mr Chafer : That's actually supported by Sumitomo, one of the largest trading companies in the world. They are so excited about that project that their CEO and CFO actually came to the East Kimberley. I drove them across to Wyndham and showed them Wyndham. They were actually really surprised by the vast amount of undeveloped land we have here compared to Japan. Senator STERLE: That is exciting. I just want to see it all come to fruition. I'm just wrapped about your fuel, mate, and what you've done up here. Good on you. Shame the rest of Australia haven't followed you. CHAIR: Thank you, Mr Chafer, for your evidence today. If the committee's asked for any responses on notice—I don't think either Senator Smith or Senator Sterle asked for any questions on notice, but if they have done that, you will be provided with them, and the answer should come back to the committee within two weeks of you receiving a copy of the Hansard transcript. Thank you for your evidence today. I'm just sorry that I didn't get to go to the port yesterday. Senator STERLE: It was a real eye-opener. It really was. It was great. CHAIR: Like I said, these two blokes can do the report, and hopefully they'll do justice to what they saw. Mr Chafer : I'm sure they will! CHAIR: We'll get another opportunity, no doubt. Proceedings suspended from 12:24 to 13:05 .