ABDELATIF, Mr Ahmed, Charge d'Affaires, Embassy of Sudan RIHAN, Mr Osama, Counsellor and Deputy Head of Mission, Embassy of the Arab Republic of Egypt ZAILACHI, Mrs Wassane, Ambassador, Embassy of the Kingdom of Morocco in Australia Subc ommittee met at 09:04 CHAIR ( Mrs Phillips ): Welcome. I declare open this public hearing of the Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade (Trade Subcommittee) in relation to its inquiry into strengthening Australia's trade and investment relationships with Africa. This hearing will be broadcast on the parliament's website, and the proof and official transcript of the proceedings will be published on the committee's website. This hearing is a legal proceeding of the parliament. The giving of false or misleading evidence is a serious matter and maybe regarded as a contempt of parliament. The evidence given today will be recorded by Hansard and attracts parliamentary privilege. Witnesses giving evidence from overseas should be aware that, whilst they are entitled to the protections of parliamentary privilege in Australia with respect to the evidence they give, these protections may not extend to another country. I now invite you to make an opening statement before we proceed to discussion. Mrs Zailachi : Chair and honourable members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to present the Kingdom of Morocco's perspective on strengthening Australia-Africa trade cooperation. Morocco welcomes this initiative and recognises its importance in building a forward-looking, mutually beneficial economic partnership. A first structural challenge lies in the perception of Africa as secondary within Australia's external economic priorities. The continent represents one of the most dynamic regions globally with a rapidly growing population, expanding renewable energy capacity, accelerating urbanisation, rising infrastructure demand, emerging digital ecosystems and control of critical maritime routes. Major partners have recognised this potential and institutionalised their engagement through high level forums such as China-Africa, Japan-Africa, EU-Africa, US-Africa, GCC-Africa and, furthermore, India-Africa. Russia, Turkey and South Korea have all convened dedicated high-level forums with Africa. By contrast, Australia has an opportunity to elevate its engagement by establishing a structured platform that enhances visibility, deepens policy coordination and enables a more strategic and differentiated partnership with Africa. Strengthening Australia-Africa trade cooperation requires a long-term framework grounded in diversification, sustained institutional dialogue and high-level political commitment. In this context, regular trade missions led by government members would play a pivotal role in reinforcing credibility, fostering trust and translating strategic intent into concrete outcomes, while partners such as Morocco stand ready to contribute actively and constructively to the shared vision of expanded and mutually beneficial cooperation. The African continent is not a single market but comprises 54 diverse countries, each with distinct regulatory frameworks, industrial capacities and regional value chains. A structured dialogue mechanism would allow Australia to better understand country-specific priorities, align investments with national development strategies and identify targeted areas of cooperation. A tailored approach, rather than a uniform continental lens, will yield more sustainable outcomes. Another key challenge is the concentration of Australian investment in Africa in the mining sector, which accounts for nearly three-quarters of total engagement. While mining remains important, African governments increasingly prioritise investment that supports local value addition, industrial processing, manufacturing, agribusiness, infrastructure, digital technology and education. Aligning Australian expertise with these sectors would respond directly to African development agendas and create diversified, resilient partnerships beyond a purely transactional, resource based model. Here, Morocco can play a strategic role with political stability, with an advanced industrial base, extensive free trade agreements and a geographic position linking Europe, Africa and the Atlantic. Morocco provides an ideal platform for a triangular cooperation supporting Australian companies to expand into broader African markets. CHAIR:  Would anybody else like to make an opening statement? Mr Abdelatif : Thank you very much, senators and honourable members. Our deputy covered all of what Africa is looking for in relation to Australia. As you may all know, Sudan faces very special circumstances with the attempted coup by the rebellious militia in Sudan. As Sudan is in a strategic location on the Red Sea and is the gateway to Africa, the situation in Sudan reflects the maritime security of the whole Horn of Africa and Red Sea. We are looking very much for support by Australia as a middle power in the world to help us to find peace and stability and to put pressure on supportive countries to stop the rebellious militia and to stop supporting the RSS. Mr Rihan: Thank you, honourable members. I will briefly just add that, from our view, there is significant untapped potential in the relations between Australia and Africa. While mining is an important pillar between both sides, there are many other sectors that could benefit from deep cooperation such as food security and water management. Water management in Egypt, for example, is very important for us because of the scarcity of water resources, as we have only the Nile River as the main source of fresh water in Egypt; 95 per cent of water comes from the Nile. We understand that in Western Australia, for example, the climate is quite similar to Egypt; therefore, dealing with agriculture or with water management could benefit from relations between Egypt and Western Australia, and Africa and Australia in general. There is also a good opportunity for food security and education capacity building. One other thing is the facilitation of the procedures for trade in food and agriculture between Australia and Africa, because there are very rigorous procedures from the Australian side that sometimes could hinder the flow of products, especially food products, from Egypt, for example. These are issues that are worth considering, worth looking into, because Egypt is a very big market and there is untapped potential in agricultural relations between the two countries, between Egypt and Australia, and between Africa and Australia as a whole, in that field. CHAIR: We might go to questions. I will ask a general question for each of you to answer. Just to start with, what would be some of the main things that Australia could do to help grow trade with your country? What would you like to see? Mrs Zailachi : As I mentioned in my intervention, what's important is that trade delegations should be led by members of government. We need that political green light; it opens doors. It just so happens that Morocco is a little bit in a grey zone because we're far away from the Middle East. We're too far up north from sub-Saharan Africa, so Morocco is in that grey zone. But Morocco has enormous potential. We also need to be more innovative in how we do trade. There can be joint ventures like Fortescue is doing. We can do like what Costco's blueberries and Mountain Blue are doing there. They're producing in Morocco and exporting from Morocco because of the different FTAs that we have with many countries. We are also an agricultural country. You have expertise in agriculture, and I would very much like to see cooperation in this area. We can think of triangular cooperation, which is very important, because I can understand that distance can be an issue sometimes; although, we are working a lot with many countries that are from your region, like Korea and Japan and India. So I think that expertise could come from vocational training. Morocco can become a hub to bring in students to study from Africa with your programs, for example. We have 17,000 African students studying in Morocco, so the potential is there, and you have expertise in many, many areas. As one example, Morocco hosts the largest agritech and agribusiness exhibit. I would very much like to see Australia participate. More than 72 countries take part, so I would hope to see Australia also be present and interact with the more than 25 African countries that are present. Since Australia has only, I believe, nine embassies that cover 54 countries, that's a big geography. CHAIR: Thank you. Would you like to comment? Mr Abdelatif : Sudan and Australia share the similarity of resources. Sudan is known as the land of gold. We appreciate that there are two Australian mining companies investing in Sudan. We are looking forward to encouraging more Australian companies to invest in Sudan to mine for gold, iron, cobalt and other resources. We even share a similarity in agriculture resources. With the River Nile in Sudan, we need more agricultural technology to help our country to develop the agriculture sector. We have nearly 140 million animal capital in Sudan, so we need the know-how and the technology from Australia to support Sudan to enhance these sectors. Mr Rihan: Like I said, trade is an untapped potential. We understand that there are rigorous regulations for trade from the Australian side, but that has caused trade between Egypt and Australia, for example, not to be at the best level. For example, we have been trying to negotiate getting table grapes and pomegranate to the Australian market for about 13 years, and there hasn't been any advancement in that area. It seems that it's not one of the priorities for the Australian side to at least just facilitate the entry of such products. It is something that is worth looking into because Egypt is an agricultural country and we export our products to the United States and Europe and everywhere around the world. But in Australia it's a lot less, because of the regulations. So if there is a mechanism that could facilitate the negotiations or facilitate the requirements or if there is a certain protocol that we can go through in order to have access to Australian markets, that would benefit both sides. CHAIR: Thank you. That's very helpful. I might go to the deputy chair. Senator COLBECK: I'll put my hand up and say I'd like to see the pomegranates come in. I'll go to biosecurity to start with, because that's what you were talking about with respect to market access here. What is your experience in that sense? We do unapologetically have a very high biosecurity system here, and increasingly jurisdictions around the world are moving more to a photo based system for access for agriculture products to protect their local attributes. How, in your view, could that be facilitated? And that would go for all, because it is seen as a high barrier. I understand that, but it's for good reason. Mr Rihan: I guess, if there are certain steps that could be laid out, we could go through then. We're exporting, like I said, to major markets around the world—the United States and Europe—and they all have rigorous requirements. We abide by all those requirements, and we have market access to them. But, from the Australian side, it has been very difficult to get access to any new products. We have very limited agricultural products that are in the Australian market—citrus, for example, but I think that's about it. There isn't much more. What is applied for citrus, if it's applied for any other agricultural product, then access could be facilitated a bit. Senator COLBECK: In terms of freeing up two-way investment, you were talking about that, particularly with resources but with other things too, and I think some of those are really interesting. What are the key things that you see as facilitating that? I'm really interested in the trade delegation side of things. I think there's capacity for some relationships to be built through that process, and I understand the value of members of parliament participating in that process alongside industry. But what about investment flows? Because it's investment flows that actually quite often drive some of these things. Mrs Zailachi : I think investments can only happen when we know each other better, when we're more familiar with our markets. That's the issue: it's this lack of communication in terms of the exchange of visits that does not allow for us to know each other better. Let's say we have to date a little more to get to know each other. I think that's very important. The other point I would like to make is that I have the impression that your perception of the Arab world goes from the Middle East all the way to Morocco, whereas North Africa is very different from the Middle East—in mindset, in geography and in many things. Morocco received 20 million tourists last year. In Morocco almost 50 per cent of our energy comes from renewables. So we are proactive, and there's a lot going on. We have 75 per cent of world reserves in phosphate. We have the largest port in Africa. We are the only African country to have an FTA with the United States. So, when you're talking about biosecurity, if we're exporting directly to America, then automatically we meet those requirements. We have 250 companies that are in the aeronautic sector. Each plane that is flying has 10 per cent of Moroccan parts in it. We have a high level of skilled labour—250 companies. Senator COLBECK: Where are you served from in terms of diplomatic presence from Australia? Mrs Zailachi : Well, I'm here. Senator COLBECK: I know you're here; I get that. Where are we placed? We've got nine locations. Mrs Zailachi : The last one was in Morocco, so that's good news. But we would like to move forward. Our bilateral relations are very cordial, but I would like to see the economic trade expand, because there's a lot of potential for Australian companies to explore new markets and there's just so much to do in Africa. So you should not see Morocco only as the destination; Morocco can also be a platform, a gateway, an entrance. There are also many companies that prefer to open offices in Morocco and work from Morocco to western Africa, because we are the first private investors in western Africa and the second in Africa. So Moroccans can accompany foreign companies to access other markets. Senator COLBECK: Thanks. CHAIR: Ms Clutterham. Ms CLUTTERHAM: I have a few questions but I'll ask just a couple, in the interests of time and to share the floor. I was interested, Mrs Zailachi, in your comment, right at the start, that Australia sees Africa as a secondary market, and I just wondered what the nature of that was. Is it the case that Morocco, for example, has been participating in extensive outreach to Australia and it's just not happening? Is the door being slammed? Or is it just the case that there's the sense that there are other priorities and there is more we could do? Mrs Zailachi : It would be rude to say the door is being slammed. I would not say that. I think it's just that we have not reached the level where there's that curiosity to really want to go and reach out. I don't believe in the tyranny of distance. We have 80 Japanese companies in Morocco. We have plenty of South Korean companies. Our trade with India is booming. With Singapore we have a chamber of commerce, and, when you open a chamber of commerce, that means the trade is up there. So there's just so much potential, and what I would like to see is for the parliament and government to just show interest and to start visiting, leading delegations—maybe each time do two or three countries. But there's a lot that Australia is missing out on. Ms CLUTTERHAM: I'm comforted by that answer. That is good. That tells me there's a good platform from which we can build. Mrs Zailachi : Absolutely. Ms CLUTTERHAM: The second question I have is probably to Mrs Zailachi and Mr Rihan. It's on the ease of doing business in Morocco and Egypt. You talked of Australian companies potentially wishing to set up. What are the barriers to entry? What is the regulation? Is there a requirement for Moroccan or Egyptian shareholders? How easy is it for a foreign company to set up in Egypt and Morocco? Mr Rihan : In Egypt, there have been a lot of improvements in the investment laws. A lot of regulations have been adjusted to attract foreign investment in Egypt. Now there is a one-window policy, where foreign companies or foreign investors can complete any paperwork for establishing a company in Egypt in a very short time. Also we have the Suez Canal Economic Zone, which is a very promising investment platform for foreign investment. I can provide the committee with more details on the Suez economic zone and the investment laws that have been reformed recently to attract foreign investment. And it has been very successful in attracting it. Ms CLUTTERHAM: Is it a little bit like the free zones that have been set up in the United Arab Emirates, with different regulations within certain geographical locations within the country? Mr Rihan : Yes. Mrs Zailachi : As for Morocco, of course, we export a lot; we are an exporting country. We have an open economy. We export almost one million cars a year; they're basically French. We have companies from all over the world investing in Morocco. We've started making electrical cars and batteries also for electrical cars. In terms of investment, of course, we have a stable economic legal framework. So, with regard to that, there's absolutely no question about it. You have many of your ASX mining companies in Morocco. You have one of them that did the feasibility study on the joint Morocco-Nigeria gas pipeline that would be going from Nigeria around 14 West African countries and going up north. It was WorleyParsons that did the feasibility study. So you have the expertise, and companies should not be shy. CHAIR: I'll go to Senator Smith. Senator DEAN SMITH: Excellencies, thank you very much for your participation this morning. It's very important to us. I want to turn to the point of familiarity, because I think the lack of awareness is the starting point. I was surprised to read, in a discussion we had with Australian officials earlier this week, about some of the challenges around access to visas for businesspeople and the difficulty in people from Africa being able to travel to Australia to build familiarity and trust and then the difficulty for Australians to travel to Africa. I was wondering if you had any individual experiences that you might be able to share with us where the immigration system in Australia might treat—this a gross generalisation; excuse me—Africa with too much suspicion, seeing Africa singularly rather than seeing Africa through its individual member states. I'm keen to understand. Are you aware of those difficulties, and might that be a first point? If we can build the ease with which people can travel backwards and forwards and build familiarity, that might be an element in building the economic and trading relationship. Mrs Zailachi : All I can say is I know that for some of my colleagues there have been visa issues, but, as for Morocco, no, we have never had that issue. As for Australians, they don't need a visa to enter Morocco. That's standard. Senator DEAN SMITH: How many Australians are in the 20 million, out of curiosity? Mrs Zailachi : About 37,000. We hosted, of course, the Africa Cup of Nations, and now we're going to co-host the World Cup in 2030. I hope you will be one of our tourists also! Senator DEAN SMITH: And in regard to Egypt? Mr Rihan: Yes, we've had some difficulties—maybe not exactly for investment or trade, but for visas in general we've had some difficulties. For example, one of the most important businessmen in Egypt, Ahmed Ezz, who is the owner of Ezz Steel, was denied a visa last year. You would imagine that, if someone like that arrived in Australia, there would have been some important talks on not trade but investment opportunities. There was also another missed opportunity last year with the opening of the Grand Egyptian Museum, where the media team were denied visas to come to Australia. Australia was one of the countries that was going to be showcased in the opening of the Grand Egyptian Museum. It was a missed opportunity because they couldn't get the visas at all and therefore had to adjust the film because they weren't able to produce anything here. They were supposed to film Sydney Harbour and the Sydney Opera House. If you see the opening of the Grand Egyptian Museum, you'll see a very short clip of musicians in front of the Sydney Opera House. It only lasted for about 10 seconds, and then it moved to another country. That's because we weren't able to get them here to do their production. Issues like this could be a challenge. Senator DEAN SMITH: Reflecting on those two instances, was it administrative delay? What was the explanation provided? Mr Rihan : Unfortunately, we don't get explanations from Home Affairs. It's just the standard explanation that is written in the visa notification. Senator DEAN SMITH: Yes, I'm very familiar with it. Mr Rihan : There's nothing specific that we can understand. Senator DEAN SMITH: Did you go to your local Australian parliamentarian to ask? Don't broadcast that, but sometimes it works. It goes to the point of perception—a country that's difficult to deal with. And the Sudanese? Mr Abdelatif : In regard to that, we face difficulties in visas, in business and in other sectors. Generally, if you'll allow me to add one thing, Sudan has opened its door to investment from Australia and other Western countries. I'll give you one example. One of the organisers of the yearly Africa Down Under conference in Perth explained that the Australian companies—compared to, for example, Canada—invest only 10 per cent of the investment of Canada in Sudan. As I mentioned, Sudan opened the doors to Australia and other countries to invest in Sudan. Generally, I believe not investing in Sudan opens doors to other partners in the world. For example, we have a huge investment from China in Sudan in different sectors. We believe more investment from Australia and other Western countries will help us to enhance and improve our commercial relations with Australia and other countries. Senator DEAN SMITH: Being from Western Australia, we have a very strong mining focus, and we often look at the investment opportunities in Africa through the lens of mining, but Sudan and Egypt have very strong agricultural economies. When we think about the trading opportunity too heavily through the mining lens, does it give the perception that Australia is, rather than looking for a mutually beneficial trading relationship, looking at the relationship too selfishly? Mrs Zailachi : No, I wouldn't say 'selfishly'. I would just say that we need to sit down and see how we can deepen our collaboration. When we're talking of mining, for example, Morocco is a mining destination also, and people are surprised to hear that. But what Australia can do is, because you have expertise in mining, link mining to education. We can link mining to vocational training, and that's where we can work with our departments of education or vocational training. We have we signed an MOU in vocational training to maybe open a campus in Morocco. We have many countries. We have the Brits, the Canadians, the Spanish, the Americans. They open campuses because—how many students can you bring to Australia? Not many. If we can work together on programs too, that would also help other African countries—mining countries—to acquire skills in the mining sector, for example. This is just a simple example, but if we don't start with something and we're just waiting for something big to happen—it won't. It has to be incremental. That's very important. Senator COLBECK: I'll just ask something off the back of that—sorry to butt in. In terms of education, are there any Australian institutions that have a base in Morocco at this point in time? Mrs Zailachi : No. And we have 17,000 African students studying in Morocco. Senator COLBECK: Your point about how many students we can bring into Australia is a relevant one, given some of the other conversations we're having in the country about housing capacity and things of that nature which a lot of other jurisdictions are dealing with as well. Mrs Zailachi : Yes—and cost also. Senator COLBECK: Are there any barriers to an Australian university or vocational training provider being established in Morocco? Mrs Zailachi : There wouldn't be. We can do it with vocational—since it's government, it's free. Vocational training in Morocco is free. There would be an MOU between our two governments, and then they could start preparing the program and deciding what is needed. That's when the experts get together. We can also go for private education. Senator COLBECK: I was going to ask about exactly that. Mrs Zailachi : You see? Senator COLBECK: We're channelling each other! Mrs Zailachi : We have, for example, private universities, and we have public universities. We have private schools and public schools. The public universities are free. They are free. CHAIR: Can I go to Ms Jarrett, who is online, next. Ms JARRETT: I apologise for being late. We had some technical issues. I'm glad to be here with you. I missed the beginning, so I do apologise if I ask a question or two that you have already covered off. I heard that Morocco can potentially be a gateway to other parts of the region. I want to explore that a bit more in terms of what opportunities there might be for Australia's trade and investment—in what areas and in what sectors—and whether there are potential barriers we need to address that we need to be thinking about. Mrs Zailachi : Thank you. We can think of education. We can talk about agritech and agribusiness. Morocco has more than 3,500 kilometres of coastline. We have fishing agreements with many countries and with the European Union. We also hold an exhibit that has everything to do with fishing. We have an agritech and agribusiness one, and we have a fishing one. One thing we would like to start doing in Morocco is fish farming. That could be an area. There are some fishes that we eat here that we don't have there. Agriculture is very important. You have expertise. I can see agriculture; I can see renewable energies also. Last year, Australia opened an ACIAR bureau in Morocco. That's very important because ACIAR deals with agricultural issues. If they decided to open in Morocco, it's because they see the potential in how these institutions can work together on research and triangular cooperation, for example, because we have a lot of research agreements with European countries and with American universities. The world seed bank is located in Morocco. Of course, mining is another one. More and more Australian companies are investing and prospecting in mining. There's plenty. We brought a document with us; maybe your colleagues will share it with you. It gives you an overview of Morocco's economy. Ms JARRETT: Thank you for that. We've heard previously—and this is a question for all the countries represented—that there are some significant intranational constraints that could slow down potential trade and investment opportunities. I wonder what they might be from your perspective, looking at further trade and investment into your countries. Would you agree with that, and what would they be? Mrs Zailachi : With regard to Morocco, there are no constraints. That's not an issue. Ms JARRETT: You would see that— Mrs Zailachi : Yes, it's stable. No, it's not an issue. Ms JARRETT: Sudan? Egypt? Mr Rihan: For Egypt, getting market access for Egyptian agricultural products has been a challenge recently. I explained earlier that, for example, there have been talks going on for about 13 years now to get access for table grapes and pomegranates to the Australian market, and it hasn't moved at all. We understand that it's not one of the priorities for the Australian side to discuss this issue at the moment. But this is one of the areas where you can say there's untapped potential, because Egypt exports its agricultural products around the world—to the American market and the European market—and it is an opportunity to also be able to export to the Australian market. What those issues that hinder the flow of products are we do not know, but I guess it would be technical biosecurity issues that need to be resolved. But we don't know what the details or specifics would be. Ms JARRETT: I wonder whether that's an area for us to explore, potentially, because it might be biosecurity. My next question to you was going to be: what do we need to do to address some of these things? But, if we don't know what the cause is, how do we address it? Mr Rihan: Yes. The facilitation of the procedures, I guess, would be a step to look into the issue. Ms JARRETT: And Sudan? Mr Abdelatif : I mentioned before that Sudan and Australia share similarity in the land, resources and agriculture. Australia is one of the main suppliers for wheat for Sudan by the private sector. Looking forward, they're helping in agricultural research and other sectors. Ms JARRETT: Are there other intrastate constraints for you that are slowing down potential import/export opportunities? Mrs Zailachi : What do you mean by 'intrastate'? African countries? Ms JARRETT: Yes, countries within Africa. We've heard from some that it may be a governance issue or a security issue et cetera that's potentially slowing movement of supplies across countries before they can be exported or imported—that sort of thing. Are you seeing any of those sorts of challenges? Mrs Zailachi : It's true that trade within the continent remains very low. That's certain. But I think it's also because of the different levels of development, infrastructure and transportation. So there are a lot of factors that come into account, I would say. Ms JARRETT: But we'd have to explore it specifically once we identify the key priority areas, because I think that to facilitate trade—I'm not even going to call it 'trade'; I'm just going to call it 'movement of goods through countries' and 'investment through countries' et cetera—if there are blockages and challenges there, maybe that's something we could explore. Mrs Zailachi : As I said before, Morocco is the first private investor in western Africa. Now you can drive from Tangier to Senegal. There's a road that will take you all the way. So we have trucks going all the way down to western Africa. That's not a problem. Ms JARRETT: Thank you for that. CHAIR: We might move to Mr Batt. Mr BATT: In relation to the last term of reference for the inquiry, which is 'the role of the government in identifying new opportunities and assisting Australian companies to access existing and potential economic opportunities in Africa', my question is about public-private partnerships. What are your thoughts on expanding trade and investment with African nations through public-private partnerships, and what sectors, in particular, would be best in those opportunities, if any? That's for all three of you as we go along. Mrs Zailachi : There are a lot of public-private projects in Morocco. One example is the one that was signed with Fortescue, a $13 billion contract with a public phosphate company, and they're working on green hydrogen. That's a perfect example. The gas pipeline that I mentioned before is public-private also because it's a very big project. It could be at different levels. Of course that's possible, depending on the sector. Mr Rihan : It's pretty much the same as Her Excellency explained. We also have three memorandums of understanding between Fortescue and the Egyptian side on green hydrogen. Public-private is available. It's there. We just need to push more. Mr BATT: And Sudan? Mr Abdelatif : Nothing from Sudan. CHAIR: We might move to Mr Neumann. Mr NEUMANN: I do apologise for being back and forth out of this committee like a yo-yo. I'm just interested in DFAT's footprint across the continent of Africa. There are 54 countries, and we've only got nine missions in your countries. Mrs Zailachi : We're the lucky ones! Mr NEUMANN: Yes, but there's not even an honorary consulate in Sudan. I'm interested in what barriers you've observed as a result of that—in terms of Australia progressing trade with Africa—particularly for your country. I think you have to go through Egypt. Mr Abdelatif : The embassy of Australia in Egypt covers Sudan. Maybe because of the special circumstances in Sudan, we miss a lot of visits from His Excellency the ambassador and trade or commercial missions to Sudan. But our door is open to receive anyone. In Sudan, we actually believe this. If I'm allowed, I want to suggest that signing a trade agreement between Australia and Africa will help a lot, especially for the business sector to improve and enhance their investment in Sudan and Africa. Mr NEUMANN: We also have a number of countries in Africa, particularly in the north, that are covered by our embassies in Lisbon and Paris. I'm just interested in the perspective from countries in Africa about the fact that we've got our ambassadors and our missions. Colonial times ended a long time ago, but we seem to still have a legacy there. I'm interested in your response. Mrs Zailachi : What we usually hear when there are not enough embassies—and this is the case for all of us—is it's because of budgetary constraints. That's what we hear. But I believe that, in this time and age, it's important to have a presence, as much as possible, because it's that interaction that creates those opportunities. When you sit down with someone that you know and you talk, that's very important. I think India has about 50 embassies in Africa, and they're really expanding. We see Turkiye also expanding in Africa. We also have a big network in Africa. But it is important, I think, for a G20 country, a rich country, like Australia, a developed country with so many resources and so much expertise. I think that's why sometimes I get a little frustrated, because I would very much like to see Australia or Australian companies involved in Africa because there are many opportunities. Mr NEUMANN: We're seen differently, aren't we? We were not part of that colonial experience. We're seen as a player in the area. From Dean's state, we look across the Indian Ocean, and in my home state of Queensland we look to the Pacific, of course. Is there a problem in that we don't turn up? I think you and I have talked about this before—that we don't front up to conferences. Mrs Zailachi : It doesn't materialise. Mr NEUMANN: Is it because we don't have missions there? Mrs Zailachi : That could be a factor, yes, indeed, but also— Mr NEUMANN: You talk to me about conferences and meetings, saying we have not sent anyone. Mrs Zailachi : That you can attend—yes, I'm saying that. That's true. You seem to be more focused on the region here, giving it 98 per cent priority. I think that now we should be doing everything at the same time. Europe is very important for us. We provide Spain with more than 40 per cent of its needs in fruits and vegetables. We're very present in Europe, but nevertheless we have very close ties with America and with African countries. I would like to see Australia be more present. Mr NEUMANN: You sound like Senator Dean Smith, who talks about us being an Indian Ocean presence, not just a Pacific orientation. Senator DEAN SMITH: The orientation of countries—not their geographic orientation, necessarily, but their psychological orientation—is very important to be aware of. As Mr Neumann said, in Australia those of us that come from the west coast, supported by the fact that there's a great distance between us and the east coast—look at South Asia and South-East Asia differently to those on the east coast, who have a North Asia and Pacific orientation. That is also reflected in our population. In Western Australia we have a very large Indian population and an increasingly large Sudanese population. These things are important to understand in the beginning. What is the correct way for us to understand and look at Africa? It's not a secret, but we were given this diagram, which is representative of Australia's representations, and I couldn't help but think it was a rather lazy way of approaching the issue. It's geographic, and it's countries that are contiguous. Just because a country is in close proximity to another, in no context does it mean they are necessarily— Mr NEUMANN: Australia and Canada. Senator DEAN SMITH: Correct. Our starting point is rather lazy. To your earlier comment about how Australia might be guilty of seeing the Arab world extending across North Africa: I hadn't heard that before, but I can understand why it would be an easy way in which to look at the world. What's the right way for us to look at Africa, and is there a different lens through which we should be? Mrs Zailachi : It's the politicians, it's parliament, it's government and it's exchange of visits. When a parliamentary delegation comes back—maybe we can take your committee to Morocco and Egypt—you have a more clear vision and idea when you return of the country, its culture and its perception in how it sees the world. You will have meetings with officials. That's how you'll get the feeling of it. We were lucky to have the Hon. Milton Dick visit Morocco in January. It was the first time that a Speaker of the House visited Morocco, so it was wonderful; it was very good. We have to start with those visits. Maybe committees that are more focused on the economies can look more into our economies and see areas that could eventually be of interest to Australia; that's also possible. But I find it regrettable that Austrade used to have a bureau in Morocco and closed it; that's unfortunate. Mr NEUMANN: We closed the one in Egypt as well. Mrs Zailachi : You closed Egypt also. CHAIR: Thank you for coming today. If you have been asked to provide any additional information, please forward it to the secretariat by Thursday 2 April 2026. Please note that responses to questions on notice will be published on the website as submissions to the inquiry. You will be sent a copy of the transcript of your evidence, and you will have an opportunity to request corrections to any transcript errors. Proceedings suspended from 10:00 to 10:14 .