GARROD, Ms Alison, Assistant Secretary, Family and Offshore Humanitarian Delivery Branch, Department of Home Affairs KILNER, Mr Damien, First Assistant Secretary, Citizenship, Humanitarian, Family Visa Programs and Support, Department of Home Affairs Committee met at 0 9 :00 CHAIR ( Ms Miller-Frost ): I declare open the public hearing of the Standing Committee on Social Policy and Legal Affairs for the inquiry into the relationship between domestic, family and sexual violence and suicide. I'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the country on which we meet today and pay my respects to ancestors and elders past, present and emerging. I extend this respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples and their cultural and spiritual connections to Australia's land and waters. This hearing will be broadcast and the transcript of proceedings will be published on the parliament's website. For those in person or listening online, please be advised that this hearing may contain evidence that could cause distress. If anything you hear today upsets you or causes distress, please reach out to 1800RESPECT, Lifeline, 13YARN, Kids Helpline or other support services. There is also the Parliamentary Workplace Support Service and the Employee Assistance Program for Broadcasting, Hansard, the committee secretariat, the committee and its member staff. I now welcome representatives from the Department of Home Affairs. Although you're not required to give evidence under oath, this hearing is a legal proceeding of the parliament and has the same standing as proceedings of the House. The giving of false or misleading evidence is a serious matter and may be regarded as a contempt of parliament. The evidence given today will be recorded by Hansard and attracts parliamentary privilege. I know that you've given us a brief opening statement, which you can take as read, but is there anything else you wanted to say before we proceed to discussion? Mr Kilner : No, I just want to see if you want me to read my statement into the record. CHAIR: No, we can incorporate it. That’ll be fine. But thank you very much. The document read as follows— Thank you for the opportunity to appear today. I would like to begin by acknowledging the Traditional Owners of the land on which we meet and pay my respects to Elders past and present. I extend that respect to any First Nations people present today. Over the past five years the Department of Home Affairs has made significant improvements in the way we manage reports of domestic and family violence. We recognise that victim-survivors interacting with the migration system may be particularly vulnerable and that we have an important role in supporting them through trauma-informed practices. The department has well-established processes to identify, escalate and manage high-risk client interactions, including where suicidal ideation or risk of suicide is raised. These matters are immediately prioritised and escalated, and the individual is connected with appropriate specialist services and support. The Department contributes to whole-of-government efforts under the National Plan to End Violence Against Women and Children 2022-32. We have implemented a number of measures under the Plan to strengthen support for people interacting with Australia's migration system. This includes establishing the Domestic and Family Violence Support Service in 2021 which supports temporary visa holders experiencing violence. This Service provides a front door to the department for these clients, connecting them with specialist support services and providing visa information. We recognise that temporary visa holders can face additional barriers to seeking help, including concerns about their visa status, financial dependence and limited support networks. Since 2021, almost 4,000 referrals have been made to the Service. Since 2024, the government has expanded the Family Violence Provisions to a further 18 permanent visa subclasses, bringing the total to 20. These provisions were originally established to allow Partner visa applicants to continue their pathway to permanent residence where their relationship with their sponsor had ended because of violence. The expansion now covers dependent visa applicants whose relationship with the primary visa applicant has ended, including applicants across skilled, business and other family visa subclasses. Claims under the Family Violence Provisions are processed by a central unit. Where necessary, independent experts who are psychologists assist in assessing whether family violence has occurred. There is no place for family violence in Australia, and we communicate this message to our clients and the broader community by investing in communication and engagement activities. Our family violence website content can be translated into 16 community languages to support culturally and linguistically diverse communities. Since 2021, the Service has undertaken more than 550 engagements with legal providers, community groups, state and territory agencies, and health and domestic and family violence support providers. Through its work across communities, the department's Community Liaison Officer Network reinforces Australia's expectations regarding family violence and promotes the Service as a primary contact point. Additional funding has also been provided under the National Plan through the Settlement Engagement and Transition Support program to help settlement providers support migrant and refugee women affected by domestic and family violence. The department recognises the serious impacts of domestic and family violence, including its links to suicide, and continually strengthens its services to better support victim-survivors. Thank you. CHAIR: You've obviously read our terms of reference, and you would understand what we're trying to get out of this inquiry. A lot of the evidence that we've heard, particularly for people who are getting to the point of contemplating suicide, has been largely around the notion of feeling trapped and powerless, and obviously a visa issue on top of that is a whole different level. I should say that I used to run a domestic violence service, a homelessness service, in Adelaide, and people who were there particularly on partner visas or as secondary visa holders were some of our most difficult cases to deal with in terms of what their options were. Is this something that you're seeing a lot of, and are there particular visa classes that you are seeing this in? Mr Kilner : We are seeing it in a range of different visa classes. The majority of outreach to the department around domestic and family violence continues to be in the permanent space, particularly in relation to partner visas. The government has, through the National Plan to End Violence against Women and Children 2022-2032, also recognised that when we first set up the domestic and family violence provisions to allow people to remain permanently in Australia after the breakdown of their relationships through violence the initial focus on primarily partner visas was inadequate and needed to be expanded to other categories. So, through 2024 and beyond, the government expanded the available subclasses of visas that are able to now be considered for permanent residence to, now, 20 different visas. That covers a range of visas. As I said, partner continues to be covered. It's expanded into the skilled visa program as well. But, of course, we do get outreach from a range of clients on temporary visas as well. Student visas would be one of the larger groups of temporary visa holders, but some of the business activity or temporary skilled visas are the other categories that we get outreach from. The department have set up a range of services to provide an individual response to clients who reach out to the department, and we also engage quite extensively with a range of stakeholder groups to promote that service. At some stage today, I'll be happy for Ms Garrod to run you through how we manage those individual interactions as they come into the department and how we do that wraparound support for clients who reach out for assistance. CHAIR: That would be very helpful. I'm also really interested in the type of risk assessment that you may do in terms of the vulnerability of the person that you're dealing with for the form of violence that they're the recipient of. Do you look at the state of their mental health, their suicidality and those sorts of things? Ms Garrod : Yes, we do. In the short version, we look at their indicators of vulnerability and suicidal risk. Mr Kilner was just talking about the domestic and family violence support service, which commenced in 2021, which is providing the outreach service and a soft landing point into the department to support clients who might be affected by DFV. That service is targeted at temporary visa holders because they don't necessarily have a pathway, but that does actually include many partner visa holders who are not yet on the permanent part of their visa. They may not be sure about their final outcome, so they're still experiencing that uncertainty about what might happen to them. In DFVS and, in fact, across the department more broadly, we have indicators for understanding vulnerability, including around suicide. Through DFVS over the last two years, we've picked up around 20 clients—nine one year and 11 the next—where they may have had suicidal risk, but that's just what they tell us. I's nothing more than an outreach service. It is only what they tell us. It's only at point in time. Then we have our own processes to make sure that they're escalated, depending on severity. Where necessary, we'll call police to do a welfare check on them, but mostly we'll just make sure they're connected with relevant services to support them, like the ones you introduced at the beginning of the hearing, or legal services as required. Then there are processes across other channels where people make contact with the department to also escalate those sorts of threats of self-harm, and those get handled very carefully. That said, we don't track this data. It's not a field in our systems. We don't have a record. We can handle the client in the immediate, but we don't systemically track data of these sorts of risks over all of our cases and the entire client population. Mr Kilner : We have a comprehensive training program that covers the broad interactions that we have with clients across the department. For example, in our visa programs, our staff are required to undertake specific training around domestic and family violence escalation parameters. We have a specialist team within Ms Garrod's branch that will provide specialist guidance to staff on how to deal with clients that contact the department. We have our global support centre, our contact centre, which is run by a company called Datacom on behalf of the department, based in Adelaide. It's our primary point of call for the department when people reach out on phone calls. The staff there are well trained in identifying cases where people reach out. Generally, vulnerable people will be contacting us for a range of reasons. It may be that it's reporting individual domestic violence. It may be that they're letting us know the relationship's broken down and seeking information on next steps. On rare occasions, they will indicate that they've got suicidal thoughts, for example. There are specific escalation parameters that are in place in terms of how to manage those individual cases. As Ms Garrod said, that will include where it's been assessed as a possible risk. Then we will contact relevant police around Australia. They will ask them to undertake a home visit. We also connect them directly with a range of support services, including legal services but other services as well. Many of the outreaches that we receive are a starting point. Quite often it's things like: 'The relationship's broken down,' 'I've been subjected to domestic and family violence,' 'I'm not sure what's going to happen to me,' 'What financial support might be available?' 'What can I do?' 'What will happen to my visa?' 'Will I be deported?' These kinds of obvious questions are asked, and that's where our wraparound services come in, in terms of putting them in touch with appropriate legal support and social services, of course, as well. We work very closely as a whole-of-government response with the Department of Social Services in terms of connecting them with some temporary support, getting them potentially into shelter and those kind of arrangements as well. CHAIR: Is there any financial support available? That was part of our challenge. Admittedly, it was a number of years ago. Part of our challenge was that they often weren't eligible for any form of financial support. So, if they were homeless, you couldn't find them a home, because they couldn't ever pay rent, particularly if they weren't able to work. Ms Garrod : Again, in 2021—it was all part of the first action plan. This is more for DSS to talk about, but we have an awareness of it. We don't have anything. I guess that is the short answer. DSS had a pilot running to provide some financial support to temporary visa holders. That pilot has ended, but they now have access to the Leaving Violence Program, which is one-off payments to support people. I don't know anything more about it than its existence. CHAIR: Ms Garrod, if you have somebody who comes to you on whatever visa, what are the pathways for them? Ms Garrod : I guess the main pathway that we have is the family violence provisions. That applies to certain holders or people on the pathway towards a permanent visa. As Mr Kilner said, we just expanded that through 2024 to include 20 visa subclasses as well as more of the partner visa classes. It didn't previously include the prospective spouse visa. It now includes that as well as the other subclasses. That means that we will do an assessment. With a partner visa, it's about the relationship breaking down between the sponsor and the applicant, which I think you're aware of, from what you said before. With the other subclasses, it's about a breakdown within the family unit that's applied for the permanent residence. So it's a breakdown in the family between the primary and the secondary applicants. Where that happens and there is no other pathway—sometimes there's another pathway, and I think it's really important. A lot of our data doesn't give us a complete picture and a lot of it's a little bit rough. There are other ways to resolve these applications than through needing to use family violence provisions. But, where we do need to use them, the family violence provisions are there to provide a backstop for clients who have no other way if they want to remain in Australia. That process is that they notify the department that the relationship has ceased and tell us that it was family violence. We then go through a process of assessing those claims. Where we find that that's met through the relevant evidence that we need to assess, that will lead to a permanent pathway for that group. For temporary visa holders, it's a lot more case by case and it does depend on the circumstances of the individual situation. We may support them. A lot of the work that we do in the domestic and family violence support service is liaise across the department to let people know that there is this person; what can we do, and what are they eligible for? We're operating within the existing framework, of course. That is what we do. But there may be an option for them. Where there is not an option that's obvious to us, they may go onto a bridging visa to work out what happens next. There's a lot that can go into this. Overall, we now have a lot more protocols in place for how we will manage and handle domestic and family violence within the department, including across to cancellations as well. Mr Kilner : Not every client is seeking a visa outcome. We regularly support clients to understand what the next steps are and then assist with, in some cases, repatriation back to their home countries, which is the assistance that they are actually seeking. The levels of complexity, of course, particularly where there are children of the relationship—where we can, we look at the individual circumstances where, for example, somebody may have been a dependant on a student visa, and they may become eligible for a student visa in their own right. So we would guide them through that process. If they've applied as part of a family group for a protection visa, for example, it may be that they're able to be separated from that application, and we can look at a protection visa in their own right as well. So it very much is tailored to their individual circumstances and, of course, what they're actually requesting from us as well. CHAIR: Our terms of reference are very much around being able to see whether there's been a domestic violence context in terms of suicides. Have you ever been approached by a coroner for any evidence about a suicide about what the department might hold in terms of records? Mr Kilner : Not to our knowledge, but we'd be happy to take that on notice and confirm. We did discuss this amongst the team prior to appearing today, and that was the advice that we had received, but we'll do a double-check and come back on notice. CHAIR: Thank you. That would be good. Mr Hawke. Mr HAWKE: I've got a few questions. You mentioned cancellations, Ms Garrod. Under the new system that we've got here, the 18 permanent visa subclasses, you've got some numbers here about the unit, which I understand is 4,000 referrals since 2021 and about 550 engagements in the service as well. That's a relatively small proportion of the overall visa cohort, which is a positive, but you don't have any numbers about the expanded 18 permanent visa subclasses. Do you have any numbers about the referrals? Ms Garrod : Those referrals—we call them referrals, but it's contact points with clients into the domestic and family violence support service. They may come through to us from legal providers or domestic support or whoever, or the clients directly themselves. Mr HAWKE: Like the chair was saying. Ms Garrod : Exactly. When it comes to resolving cases through the family violence provisions, last year we resolved nearly 1,400 claims under the family violence provisions. Over 95 per cent of those would have been partner pathway, and a very, very small number were related to skilled visas. Mr HAWKE: So even with the expanded cohort—including students? That surprises me. Ms Garrod : No, students are not eligible under the family violence provisions. Students are a temporary group that we need to handle on a case-by-case basis. Mr HAWKE: But students have family members here on their visas, as you know. They're not covered by the family violence provisions at all? Ms Garrod : No. Mr HAWKE: That's interesting. So 1,400 is kind of a number I'd understand. What I'm trying to understand about this—I'm just trying to focus on this rather than all my other interests in the visa processing system. You've got a unit. Is that a central unit? Is that an integrity unit that sort of identifies whether family violence has occurred? Obviously, you're not a criminal agency. You'd make referrals for prosecutions. Once you've made an assessment that there's probably something going on—as you said, you mentioned cancellations. What does this trigger in terms of processes? The department's made an assessment. Mr Kilner : Cancellations are just a very minor aspect of our response in these circumstances. What we're trying to do in the first instance is, firstly, identify a client that's raised concerns with us, make sure that they're safe and put in connection with appropriate services, of course, and then we're looking at their overall eligibility in terms of next steps around the process. We do have a specialist team that is trained in identifying whether somebody meets the provisions, but we also have an independent expert panel that we refer clients to to assist in establishing family violence eligibility. Mr HAWKE: Typically here we're talking about when you've identified family or domestic violence. You're talking about other visa holders typically—not always, but typically. You're talking about not Australian citizens. In a lot of these cohorts, there'll be other people on visa pathways or permanent residents. Mr Kilner : The majority of people that we deal with are people who are in Australia on either a temporary visa or a provisional visa heading towards permanent residency. Mr HAWKE: Who are the victims, I'm talking about. The perpetrators are— Mr Kilner : The perpetrators could be a range, similar to the community. They could be the primary holder of a student visa where they've included family members. They could be a permanent resident or an Australian citizen. Mr HAWKE: That goes through the Australian legal processes—I understand all that—but, where they are visa holders, do you make referrals regularly either for character cancellation, under 501, or other— Mr Kilner : Where we've identified who the perpetrator is, where it's, as you say, not an Australian citizen, we then look at the evidence that's there and we'll do a referral internally to our character unit within the department for consideration around cancellation. Obviously, part of that will be referral, where appropriate, to Australian law enforcement agencies as well. Mr HAWKE: So, that is an established and regular process, with these numbers that you're talking about, where it's a temporary visa holder. Mr Kilner : Yes. Mr HAWKE: I want to go back to the chair's question in terms of resolution. What I would have answered to that is: most of these family visas would still be resolved, under the Migration Act, through a ministerial process or a ministerial delegate process, so the resolution of the final outcome of a family and domestic violence matter, right? It would always end up with a ministerial delegate or a cancellation outcome—I'm talking about perpetrators for a moment. I'm not talking about victims. I'm quite focused on both ends of the scale in this conversation. My recollection is that, on a family level, most of this would end up with the minister or a ministerial delegate, especially where a victim—let's go to the victim for a moment—has a unique or particular family domestic violence problem. Effectively, it has to go for a discretionary decision rather than a legal outcome. Has that continued to be the system under this? Mr Kilner : There are two lines of effort. One is obviously what we're doing to support the victim and resolve their status. The process would be determined on what visa they currently hold and their individual circumstances. A delegate will make a determination on whether they meet the family violence provisions, if they're available under the particular visa that they hold. For example, if it's in a partner visa space, if there are children involved in the relationship as well, generally it goes straight through to a permanent visa outcome in that scenario. As for the perpetrator, the first thing we'll do is we'll obviously identify who the perpetrator is. We'll then look at a referral of that perpetrator through to the responsible unit, our visa and citizenship cancellation unit, and a 501 delegate will then determine whether that person fails the character test. Obviously, that will be taken to a range of factors, including whether they've gone through the courts and whether they've been found guilty of a particular offence as well. Mr HAWKE: I think we're having two conversations. You're speaking about, and I agree with you, permanent visa subclasses under the family violence provisions—yes? That's what you're speaking about? Mr Kilner : Yes. Mr HAWKE: I should have enunciated it more clearly, but my question is about the rest of the visa cohorts, which is the bulk of the visas in Australia—whether that be student visas, 444s, whatever it might be—continuing to have, in family and domestic violence terms, discretionary outcomes. Because there's no solution provided for under the act, where you have family and domestic violence generally, it goes for a discretionary decision, from the department delegate or from the minister, for the rest of the cohort. You're only talking about small numbers here. We're talking about—there's heaps of family and domestic violence claims, many more than you've got in this paper. That's no criticism of your submission at all. I'm just pointing out there are a lot more claims, and a lot more claims of suicidal ideation and everything else underneath. So we've still got the current system, which is effectively discretionary under the Migration Act. Do you have any involvement in all of those? Does your section deal with all of that as well, all of the temporary claims, or is that another section of the department? Ms Garrod : The way we handle it, anything that is impacting a temporary visa holder, they will be able to come through the domestic and family violence service. That is in my branch. But in terms of their outcomes, it is going to be case by case on what they may be eligible for, how we might be able to regularise their status et cetera. We would work with the program area on that particular case. We would be working across the department on anything that might be available to that particular person. Mr HAWKE: And it's accurate to say, because this is relevant, that most of those cases, where they don't get a satisfactory outcome from a victim's perspective, would end up with the ART and then in front of a minister for intervention still, wouldn't they? That's the chain of events; that's sort of the common— Ms Garrod : It can— Mr Kilner : That is a possible pathway. The overall numbers that have gone through to ministerial intervention are very small as a percentage of the overall number. Mr HAWKE: And what's the percentage roughly? Mr Kilner : Since the inception of the domestic and family violence cases, we've had a total of 41 ministerial intervention cases. Mr HAWKE: Is that from the permanent one here or is that— Mr Kilner : It's a crossing. We've had four visas that were granted protection. One was granted a 10-year visitor visa and one was granted a New Zealand and family residence visa. That's just an example of the different—it will depend on the nature of the visa that they hold and the pathway that the minister wishes to choose. Mr HAWKE: I get that. I still feel those numbers are small. I feel like there's another set of numbers that we're missing. Ms Garrod : There can also be clients that our program areas become aware of that have not gone through the service, in which case we won't have a centralised system. I think that might be what you're getting at. Mr HAWKE: Okay. And on that front, there is obviously more. They're not eligible for your program, in temporary visas, and the department still—I don't want to say 'struggles'. The department has to apply the law and therefore it doesn't recognise a lot of the family and domestic violence situations in a temporary visa holder sense, does it? Mr Kilner : The starting point is that we look at what are the options for the client in that situation. As I said earlier, it may be that they're eligible in their own right to get another temporary visa. It may be that they could get on a pathway to a permanent visa in their own right as well. We would look at their circumstances. And there will be cases where there will not be an immediate visa pathway for them. Sometimes the client's not actually after a visa pathway; they may be after assistance for return to their home country. At the moment, we work individually; we look at the options. MI, so ministerial intervention, could end up being the outcome, but it's not the starting point for us. Mr HAWKE: And so those suicide numbers that you gave us—I understand that they're just the reported ones and the numbers are rough—they're from this particular part of the program, aren't they? Ms Garrod : They're only from that service. Those number that I gave had contact with that service only. Mr HAWKE: They'd also be a lot higher under the general claims of— Ms Garrod : If we captured every contact across the department in relation to suicidal—I should say that's not suicide; that's ideation. Mr HAWKE: Yes, I understand. You explained they were rough figures and I get that—we're not holding you to them—but what I'm saying is the numbers are small. Ms Garrod : It's only a snapshot and we've got different snapshots around different parts of engagements with the community. Mr HAWKE: Thank you; that's very helpful. Thank you, Chair. CHAIR: Claire? Ms CLUTTERHAM: Thanks very much for being here. I'm glad you're here giving evidence this morning. I have a slightly different topic. When people are coming into the country, what's the information available to people on temporary visas or people migrating or whatever? What information is there at the point of arrival about services that are available to them in the family violence, domestic violence space? The reason I ask is I had a constituent come to see me a while ago. She came to Australia on a visa, I can't recall what kind of visa it was, for an arranged marriage. There are red flags just everywhere already. She'd never met her future husband or his family. She came here. They got married and it was a terrible domestic violence situation where she was deprived of the right to access her own bank account and other horrible things. He is now on trial for attempted murder. She said all of this was happening to her and her husband told her, 'If you call triple zero, it's going to cost you $5,000,' so she didn't call triple zero. Eventually she was able to escape through other pathways. She's safe now, which is a good thing. I said to her, 'What is something that would have made a difference to you?' She said, 'Knowing that triple zero is the police emergency line and that it is free for me to call.' I said, 'Okay, that's great feedback.' She said: 'You've got a biosecurity announcement on the plane as it comes into the country, talking about fruits and animals and vegetables and whatever, and a bit of information about how you get through an airport. Why can't you just say, "In Australia, the police emergency line is triple zero; it is free," in Mandarin and Hindi and whatever on every airline that comes into the country.' I wanted to share that with you, because she felt that, if she had known that she could do that and had had that information, she would have called much earlier. She's a smart, resilient woman. She would have called much earlier and her situation would've been very different. But she didn't, because she didn't know about it. That is, I think, a very helpful suggestion from her. You're meant to be giving us recommendations in this inquiry, but I wanted to share that and put that out there as something to consider. Then, I think, as well, at airports, when people come in, have signs in different languages about what people can do if they find themselves in that situation. Triple zero—it's free. Have it in Hindi or whatever. So that's my opening statement. But the other part of what I wanted to ask you about is that, in your opening statement, you talked about communications with local communities and working with community leaders in language. Then it referred to the website's 16 different languages, which is terrific. But what things can you do to get these messages about the family violence support services out there? Again, going back to my constituent, she is not going to look up the Home Affairs website. She was so lacking in agency and power. How do we get that out there? What do you do currently? What gaps do you see and how can government help you plug those gaps? Mr Kilner : There are obviously a range of ways that we can interact with clients. As you say, the website is one, but we acknowledge that that's not always going to be the most obvious or available process. We do have an extensive community liaison officer network. We have officers all around Australia who engage with different community groups. They hold very regular community engagements where they talk about what the options are in how to report domestic and family violence and about what government and other supports are available out there. That's one of our areas. We have settlement officers as well—it's a different part of the network—who provide specific support to our refugee and humanitarian clients who arrive. Again, through the initial arrival settlement package, we provide support to them. Then we will go into options around domestic and family violence. The messaging is tailored, I think, to the individual communities, depending on the nature of the engagements that we're having. Do you have more on that? Ms Garrod : Yes. We do include information in the visa grant letters to people. I think we'd need to look at the exact wording, because I don't have that with me, but I know that we do include information. I don't know if it's as clear as around triple zero, but we can certainly have a look at that. But there definitely is information in there about expectations of the community around domestic violence in partner visas. So that is definitely an area where we try to directly reach the client, but, of course, those are in English. Mr Kilner : Before clients arrive in Australia, especially in the humanitarian space, we do provide cultural orientation training. That's actually done at the point of departure. There are specific sessions in that that do explain not just to potential victims but also to the whole family about the Australian legal system around domestic and family violence and what happens in the event of domestic and family violence. So that's another area. Ms CLUTTERHAM: That's really helpful, because I think having that in the grant letter is really important. It's obvious why it's in English, right? We expect people who come to this country to be proficient, but there would be varying degrees of proficiency. I don't know how easy it would be to translate that into whatever language, but that might provide another point of information for people. I'm just conscious of time, and there are others who have a question, but I just have one more. If someone is applying for a visa to come here, I assume they're asked about their criminal history in their home countries. How difficult is it for your department to verify whether someone is being truthful about what has happened? I'm sure that in many countries the records and systems are not the same as what we have here. How do you verify that? Do you check if someone says, 'No, I haven't ever been convicted or had an allegation of whatever against me'? Do you check every application? Mr Kilner : We have a risk based approach. We do 10 million visas a year. It would be impossible for us to verify every claim that's made in every application. For permanent visas, there is a requirement to provide what we call a penal clearance, which is effectively from their home country or wherever they've been and stayed—I think it's for 12 months—within the last 10 years. You're required to provide a penal clearance from each of those countries that you may have stayed within. That will be an official record from the host country. Where we've got risk indicators that would potentially indicate to us that maybe we have some concerns about the veracity of the information in those checks, we will reach out directly through our specialised teams at overseas posts to maybe talk to the police. It may be the ministry of interior, depending on the arrangement that's in place. We can do a secondary verification of the information that's there as well. Sometimes we'll receive allegations, for example—information that may not always be listed in those clearances. In those situations, we will do everything we can to verify those claims. Where we're not satisfied, we won't grant the visa. With someone coming in on a short stay tourist visa, there's less likely to be a need to try and verify that. People are more concerned about them meeting the visa requirements in terms of staying as a tourist, for example, versus someone who's coming out to work or coming out to migrate and live in Australia. Ms CLUTTERHAM: I might come back if there's time. I'll give others an opportunity. Thank you both. CHAIR: Can I just clarify. Do the visa grant letters you referred to go to only the primary visa holder, or does the secondary visa holder get a letter as well? Mr Kilner : They go to whoever's been nominated as the point of contact in the systems. Generally, that's the primary applicant. It will include the details of all secondary applicants included in the application. In many cases, it'll be a migration agent that we'll provide it to directly rather than emailing it to the client themselves. CHAIR: If there were an instance where the primary visa holder was the perpetrator and the secondary visa holder was the victim, the victim wouldn't necessarily be getting a letter anyway unless the primary visa holder shows them. Mr Kilner : They can request that directly from the department if they report the violence and the relationship's over. In those situations, we work to separate them in our systems, and then we can provide them with copies of grant letters or other correspondence that the department is engaged with through the course of their application. CHAIR: Mr Smith. Mr DAVID SMITH: How well understood do you think it is that economic or financial coercion is a form of reportable violence, particularly thinking through that there's a real vulnerability to economic pressures for many temporary visa classes? Mr Kilner : Within the department, it is definitely a factor that we look at because that is one of the indicators of domestic and family violence. More broadly, outside the community, it's fair to say that there's still a lot of work to be done to talk about financial coercion and all the other aspects out there. This is why, when we do our, say, refugees pre-departure training, we talk about those particular elements and our community liaison officers also go into what domestic and family violence looks like. We engage with a range of third-party providers who will also go into what domestic and family violence is. It's not just one or two. It's a broad range of indicators. I think it is hard to get that message to everybody. It's something that we continue to work on. CHAIR: Mr Gregg? Mr GREGG: From what I just heard, the explanation and the training around Australia's stance around domestic sexual and family violence—were you saying that's only provided to people on humanitarian paths and not those that are coming in as partners? Ms Garrod : I can provide a little bit more detail. I think what Damien was just talking about then was around the humanitarian program and some of the programs we run offshore prior to settlement to provide advice and information about what is okay and what is illegal in Australia in relation to domestic and family violence. For the grant letter information, those will go to primary applicants across the board, as Mr Kilner explained. But, for partner visa applicants, I've just got a little bit more information. All visa grant letters in the partner program include information and a family safety pack on domestic and family violence, sexual assault and forced marriage. It links to the MyAus app run by DSS in 20 community languages. Mr GREGG: That would be handy if it were ever received by the relevant individual, which it might not be. Ms Garrod : As explained, it might go to the authorised recipient; that's right. Mr GREGG: This is my final question because I, sadly, have to go shortly. I understand that you're doing a lot of community outreach, but wouldn't it be the case that a lot of perpetrators would, as a matter of course, be isolating these individuals from their community support networks, so getting to them individually is kind of crucial? Mr Kilner : I think that's fair. That is definitely part of the situation, yes. CHAIR: Mr Ng. Mr NG: Good morning to you both. Thanks very much for making the time to speak with us today. I used to be a Department of Home Affairs employee, so it's good to see some departmental people here. Further to Ms Clutterham's excellent questions around visa letters, which I think a few of us have homed in on, would it be possible to get information in language into the hands of the secondary applicant? As Mr Gregg said, with some primary applicants who might be engaging in coercive control, the information may never make it to the secondary applicants. Mr Kilner : It's certainly something we can consider. Typically, we have not translated grant letters or other complex correspondence with clients because there's an expense involved in doing so and we want to make sure that the language remains accurate. It's certainly something that we can take on board, certainly for the majority of languages. As I said, we've got 16 languages that we are able to translate information into through our website. I think it is a bit easier now with Google Translate and things like that for translations, so it's certainly something we can consider. Dr Ng : We've heard during this inquiry that young people are often not recognised within the family violence space or at least that services are more geared towards the primary victim-survivor, who's often, say, the mother or the wife in a relationship. I feel like we've mostly been speaking about partner visa applicants, but, in terms of dependent children on partner visas or dependent children on skilled visas, what kind of data do you have? Has the program been engaging much with children who may also be victims of domestic family and sexual violence? Ms Garrod : We don't have any data with us right now around how this might impact children, but children will fall into provisions. If dependents are able to access a visa pathway, then they would also be able to access a visa pathway. One of the things we see which is complex around children is where one parent is an Australian and/or a permanent resident and the other one has no status. That is something we are very, very conscious of. It is actually in the ministerial instructions as well, around where there is a child whose parent doesn't have status in Australia. The thing we use as a guiding principle broadly is the best interests of the child, which sort of runs through all of the visa categories and considerations around circumstances to do with families. So, while the eligibility might be hanging on the family violence, the violence can be perpetrated against the female partner, but it can also be against the children and falls into our regulations and considerations as well. Mr NG: I suppose this is a bit more of a comment, but I do wonder whether or not there could be more focus as well on making sure that children and dependent applicants are also aware. I understand that's probably even more challenging in some ways than making sure that the secondary applicant, often a [inaudible] woman, might be more aware. That's more of a comment. Mr Kilner : I might add that we do have a youth transition support program that does provide specific support to humanitarian entrants and eligible migrants aged 15 to 25 to provide them with vocational training and other access—it could be to sport or to other supports—to try and reduce isolation. Obviously, as part of that, there are some domestic and family violence discussions and support that we provide as well. Mr NG: That's good to hear. Thank you. That's all the questions from me. CHAIR: Ms Clutterham, I think you had some more. Ms CLUTTERHAM: Yes. I just wanted to test a little bit more what happens when you see that there are red flags to family and domestic violence. I will go back to my constituent's situation of arranged marriage. That's not illegal. There was full consent. She came over to be married. There is a difference between forced marriage and arranged marriage. When she fills in her application to come to the country, does she have to indicate the purpose? Does she say she's coming to get married? Mr Kilner : Yes. The partner visa process may be one where they come through a visa with an intention, like a fiancée process, where they're indicating they're going to get married in Australia. At other times, the sponsor, usually the Australian citizen or permanent resident, will head over to the home country, they'll undertake the ceremony in that country, and then they apply for a partner visa. In that application, the applicant is not the sponsor, so the information that's being provided is her information. Obviously, we also collect information on the sponsor, but primarily we're focused on her eligibility and on whether the relationship is a genuine relationship or not. Then, once we're satisfied of that, as long as the health and character provisions are met, a visa is granted. Ms CLUTTERHAM: It goes ahead, yes. Does she have to indicate whether she's met her future spouse before? Mr Kilner : There is a requirement to meet at least prior to a wedding. Some years ago, it wasn't a requirement, but it's been in place now—I'd have to guess, but it'd be for at least 15 or 20 years there has been a requirement. Typically, what that means is the sponsor will travel to the home country of the applicant. They will meet in person. We ask for evidence of that where we're not satisfied. Typically, most people will put in photos and other things to establish the relationship. That's what satisfies us in more cases than not. We have had some cases where people have not met, and in those cases we will refuse the application. Ms CLUTTERHAM: It is difficult, because, obviously, what happened here was not illegal, and you don't want to implement systems and processes that punish people who want to come to Australia and characterise them as likely victims right before they do, and not grant a visa on that ground. That's not a productive way to proceed, I think. There are some obvious red flags to domestic violence, and you're more expert than I am in that space. But in terms of red flags that you see in the visa application process—again, it's not to not grant a visa because someone might be a victim—are there red flags and a checklist that you have where you say: 'Oh, yes. Okay. We've seen this play out before. We're going to give that person, that visa applicant, the tools and information just in case something is to happen'? I accept this is very difficult, because you don't want to tar people; you don't want to pre-empt what's going to happen. But the reality is there are red flags, and some people are more likely to be victims of family and domestic violence than others. How does that work? Mr Kilner : I might give you one example of where we do detect it and then engage with the client. Many of our visa applicants in, say, the partner space are applying with dependent children from a previous relationship. That's very common. So we have regulations that require us to undertake a police check of the sponsor in Australia. Where that check comes back and identifies criminal records, particularly around things like domestic violence, that information is shared with the applicant. Then they are able to make a more informed decision as to whether they want to proceed with their application or not. Ms CLUTTERHAM: That's good to know. And some people will still proceed despite that? Mr Kilner : Yes, that's correct. Ms CLUTTERHAM: But at least you've given them the information. Mr Kilner : The best we can do is let them make an informed decision, I think. In those scenarios we'll often advise them of support services that might be available in Australia post-arrival as well. It's not just about the applicant; it is also about, as Ms Garrod said, the best interests of the children and the stepchildren involved in the relationship. We want to make sure that we've considered the impacts for those children as well. Ms Garrod : And, actually, there are sponsorship eligibility criteria. If it is such a significant record of crime, then it may affect the sponsor's ability to sponsor. Very often domestic and family violence may fall below that. An AVO or something like that may not show on a criminal record, so it might be below that threshold. But there is a process there that we'll check out the sponsor, and we may become aware of something quite serious through that process—but it's probably going to be quite serious in that process. Ms CLUTTERHAM: What's the threshold for visa cancellation? Is it a criminal conviction, an allegation or an AVO? Mr Kilner : Generally, in most instances, we're looking at convictions, of a custodial sentence of greater than 12 months. That's where we're able to cancel or refuse. That requires a specialist referral to our visa cancellation area to consider whether the person fails the character test in relation to their application. As I said earlier to Mr Hawke, if we're talking about the sponsor or the permanent resident in Australia, and if we become aware of that through the criminal justice process, then obviously they'd be considered for cancellation as well. We can take into account AVOs and other things in assessing someone's eligibility against the character test. It's not just solely a custodial sentence that's considered. Ms CLUTTERHAM: It's difficult, right? One of the fundamental foundations of our legal system here is innocent until proven guilty. You can't necessarily take action before that standard has been met, of a criminal conviction. Do you think that that is too high a standard, given the prevalence of family violence in our country? Mr Kilner : We look at the totality of the individual circumstances. There may be a range of reasons why somebody is refused a visa, for example. It may not necessarily be a custodial sentence. As I said, it could be AVOs; it could be drink driving. Putting the Australian community at risk is another factor. So, cumulatively, if someone has shown a pattern of behaviour over a period of time, that will be given weight in terms of the assessment of whether they get a visa or we cancel a visa. Ms CLUTTERHAM: Understood. How do you get that data? Is there a subset within your department that is looking at cancellations? Do notifications come up of, 'Joe Bloggs has got a drink-driving charge and an AVO; we'd better look at the character grounds'? Mr Kilner : We have a specialised unit within the department, within our Immigration Compliance group, that specialises in assessing character. So there are going to be certain things that we know that we won't refer to. Speeding tickets or those kinds of minor offences—possibly shoplifting—would not necessarily trigger a consideration or a referral, but where we start to see AVOs or a pattern of significant—anything that's putting the Australian community at threat, for example. I mentioned drink driving. We do see people who have extensive records, and we will consider that because they are putting the community at risk. They will be referred to the specialist unit, and that unit will then consider that. They'll formally write to the individual to advise them that they're being considered for either refusal or cancellation and ask them for comment on what's happened. In many cases we might be dealing with somebody's record that could be from 20 or 30 years ago, in which case they are able to demonstrate a change in behaviour. So that will be given weight as well. But if there's a pattern of ongoing offences that, cumulatively, look very serious, we will go to the client and ask for comment. And a decision will then be made. Ms CLUTTERHAM: The conviction is of an offence that has more than 12 months of custodial sentence. Mr Kilner : Yes. Ms CLUTTERHAM: Is there an automatic cancellation once someone's served that sentence, or is it still a consideration? Mr Kilner : It's a consideration in most instances. Ms CLUTTERHAM: Do you think it would be helpful to have an automatic cancellation in instances where that sentence relates to family, sexual or domestic violence? If you have been convicted of intimate partner violence, coercive control, or the range of offences we have, should that not be an automatic cancellation and you need to leave the country after you've served your sentence? Mr Kilner : It may be something that's worth considering. When somebody is in jail, in prison, the department becomes aware, obviously, of their circumstances and will be moving to a cancellation of their visa while they're already in custody. Then they go on a departure pathway once they've served their sentence. Ms CLUTTERHAM: So it's not completely equivocal, but it's a pathway. Mr Kilner : Correct. Ms CLUTTERHAM: Thank you. CHAIR: Our terms of reference include opportunities to intervene. Do your staff—your frontline staff, in particular—get training around recognising family and domestic violence, suicidality and all of that? What sort of training are they getting, and what are their escalation points if they identify something? Ms Garrod : They do get training. There are a few different parts to the training, but they do get training in identifying these indicators in clients. They get training in vicarious trauma as well, for them, so that they can detect it in themselves and amongst the teams. We have access, obviously, to staff support services as well on that front. There are protocols in place for escalation of concerns where they're dealing with a client. And these are across all the different touchpoints with clients. Damien referred earlier to the call centre. As well, there are my staff in the domestic and family violence support service. And there's the ABF. Mr Kilner : Australian Border Force. Ms Garrod : So there is definitely training. There is also training in how to interact in a trauma informed way. So we're very conscious in our team that are doing the family violence provision assessments to take the evidence that we have. We may have to go and ask for more evidence, but we try to do that in a way that is sensitive to the circumstances. Obviously, we have to make sure that we are meeting our legislative obligations and assessing things properly. So there's a very high level of awareness, and that is growing further across the department as well. So it's certainly in the touchpoints that are directly related to DFV, and it's growing across the department. Mr Kilner : We also provide comprehensive privacy training to staff as well, to make sure that staff are aware, when we're engaging with clients, that we're not inadvertently sending information to the perpetrator as well. So we really want to be able to protect the client through all our interactions. That's a mandatory training as well. CHAIR: Thank you. It's good to hear that you're doing the vicarious trauma training as well. Again, having run those services, I know the toll that it does have on frontline workers. Ms Garrod : Yes—very real. CHAIR: Thank you so much for your time and your evidence. We will enter your opening statement into the record as well. We will be sending you a copy of the transcript of your evidence to assist you with answering questions taken on notice today. I think there were a couple of things in there you suggested you would provide additional information on. You will have the opportunity to request corrections to transcription errors. Once you've received the transcript—which seems to be running at about four weeks at the moment—you're asked to provide responses to any questions on notice within two weeks. Please forward these and any additional information that has been requested to the secretariat. Please note that responses to questions on notice will be published on the committee's website as submissions to the inquiry. Thank you so much for your evidence and for the work that you're doing..